I've Realized that What Makes MMOs FUN is NOT Playing with Other People

[Abombshield-grobbulus]

@Marsbars-whisperwind

So what you’re basically saying is four other people have to wait for you to drink your coffee, take a phone call, or any number of things.

So what you are saying when I enter a dungeon I can’t blink have to be dialed in and mashing keys as we try to get to the end like a competitive nascar driver.

I think you are missing the point. Content can be enjoyed and immersive if we allow it. We can take a moment to enjoy it without going 110% efficiency. I didn’t say I needed a 3 min coffee break or that I’d be gone for awhile. I merely stated I’d like to take a sip of my drink. A sip. Without being yelled at by people trying to min/max the enjoyment out of the game.

If I’m in a dungeon and don’t have time to take a sip of my drink that’s just wild. It’s really sad what has happened to MMO’s so don’t be shocked we don’t want to play with people like this.

[Nezat-moon-guard]

I think I agree and disagree with you for different reasons. I’m also personally a very independent gamer and enjoy going through content on my own, and going at your own pace is very therapeutic. I do think that delves should have some sort of higher gearing system, and they probably will once new tier levels get released to allow solo players to do what they want. I would’ve loved it when I was younger and had crazy pugging anxiety.

HOWEVER, do I think that it should be /competitive/ along-side high tier raiding or super high mythic keys? Probably not. The coordination with others is a level of difficulty that delves/follower dungeons is simply missing, and in my opinion, is what makes public content a lot more difficult than delves/follower dungeons overall which equates to receiving better rewards.

[Annatevka-proudmoore]

@Nezat-moon-guard

I do think that delves should have some sort of higher gearing system, and they probably will once new tier levels get released to allow solo players to do what they want.

Can kinda confirm - at least from how it was in Beta. I was getting Champion and Hero gear from Tier 8/9 Delves.

[Nezat-moon-guard]

I think it’d be cool if, like pvp, delve gear had support stats that provide unique buffs while you’re in delves or follower dungeons. It would help separate it from mythic or raiding but still keep it high tier for its own gameplay.

[Eärlindë-ravencrest]

@Joonhwa-stormrage

It’s a slap in the face to everyone who did M+ in every past season to earn their rewards.

No, it isn’t.

@Joonhwa-stormrage

OP mentioned M+ follower dungeons with increased rewards “to be competitive.”

You mean this?

@Abombshield-grobbulus

@Nightpain-earthen-ring

I think it would be cool if delves could offer the difficulty and rewards offered to M+ players.

Exactly!!! They should!! Why not? I’ve never heard of any good argument against this.

Not sure that I agree with that. Increased rewards for sure because the content is more difficult, but making them the same as what a human group would get I can’t agree with simply because AI will do its job as directed whereas people fail far more and cause more problems overall.

[Joonhwa-stormrage]

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

You mean like the plethora of achievements which can be attained by doing the plethora of solo content in-game?

What about the myriad achievements related to group content?

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

unnecessary competitiveness

M+ isn’t competitive, unless you care about leaderboards. More importantly, no one is forcing you to play M+; “unnecessary” implies there is something foisted on you that shouldn’t be there. However, if you want those M+ rewards – which are optional – then you will need to learn how play M+. There is no way around it. You can’t get around playing content and earn that content’s rewards at the same time.

I ran my own keys 95% of the time last expansion and had a blast with everyone. I provided the food, I thanked them for their time, I took a moment to tell everyone great job after each boss kill and forgave people when a mistake was made, because even a missed timer still yields a chest at the end and counts for the Vault. Running your own keys cuts almost all of the toxicity out of M+, provided you are respectful and don’t invite obvious stealth carries.

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

Again, no one has said they should. In fact, you’re the only one talking about rewards here. Everyone else is just talking about the content being available in different ways.

Again, OP mentioned instituting M+ follower dungeons with increased rewards to stay competitive with regular M+.

[Cinner-malganis]

The business model would suggest moving towards whatever increases profits, i.e. subs. If they are creating content for both solo and group play and their data tells them that that equates to more profits, they hire people to run both teams and create content for each mode based on the popularity.

The fact that they’ve moved this far into solo content suggests that the demand is there, so it’s just natural progression. It doesn’t mean group content is suffering, as they are not mutually exclusive. People can enjoy both.

[Jackdeth-bloodsail-buccaneers]

Another thing just occurred to me about players insisting on running through dungeons at top speed, and getting all toxic about taking more than 3.2 seconds from boss-to-boss.

It is not the game itself that drives this mad rush, and it’s not games in general. I’m not sure where exactly it is coming from, but I can tell you this behavior is everywhere. What occurred to me is about hiking, and I’m sure there is a correlation.

Not long ago, we used to have a very sensible gear and food selection when going for anything more than a few days. We planned on extended outings and thru-hikes FIRSTLY for getting outside, getting on the trail, enjoying nature, trees, wildlife, weather, scenery, mountains, streams, and sharing stories, campfires, and entrees. FYI, I was a professional wilderness guide and survival instructor, in the mountains in WNC, so I do know what I’m talking about. As a guide, I carried my own pack & gear, and also a 2nd pack for group gear and meds. At times a total of 75 lbs or more. One of my co-guides started the AT with an 88 lb pack. Ok, he’s a monster but you get the idea. We are well prepared for contingencies, which can and do occur. My personal pack today is 30’ish lbs.

But all that has changed recently. The younger people on the trail today are running thru hikes as fast as possible. The target pack weight is 7 lbs or less. The objective is to complete as many miles per day as possible, as quickly as possible, and that is pretty much the entire point and purpose. Very much like toxic people in dungeons. Guys like myself and my co-guides are seen as clowns, as these people literally jog or run right past.

It just occurred to me that it is very much like sprinting through a dungeon, slower people are intolerable, and when they get into trouble someone like me is going to have to bail them out because they min-maxed their gear too much. And not only that, but you can hear them coming from far away because just like in wow, they are incessantly bellowing about … things not even worth my breath.

There is something environmental or cultural or chemical … idk what, but its not just games, it’s everywhere.

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

@Abombshield-grobbulus

what was wrong with them. The players!!!

I’m fairly certain there are better single player games out there with dungeons to crawl into.

[Tierius-stormrage]

I prefer group content with real players. Sure most people are rude but I like pissing people off ;). I am glad though the option exists for people who want to solo stuff. I just hope that it never gets to the point where everyone solos and becomes harder or impossible for groups. Highly unlikely but you never know.

[Eärlindë-ravencrest]

@Joonhwa-stormrage

M+ isn’t competitive, unless you care about leaderboards. More importantly, no one is forcing you to play M+.

You’re still ignoring what is being said, learn to read. It’s not just M+, this is a problem that permeates all levels of group content. Try queueing up for a regular dungeon in LFG and more often than not, the people will be pissed if you don’t haul through it at warp speed.

It’s not just M+ but the constant negative behavior exists there as well. It makes group content unbearable in pugs.

@Joonhwa-stormrage

I ran my own keys 95% of the time last expansion and had a blast with everyone. I provided the food, I thanked them for their time, I took a moment to tell everyone great job after each boss kill and forgave people when a mistake was made, because even a missed timer still yields a chest at the end and counts for the Vault. Running your own keys cuts almost all of the toxicity out of M+, provided you are respectful and don’t invite obvious stealth carries.

Then you are the exception, and you need to understand that.

[Joonhwa-stormrage]

@Jackdeth-bloodsail-buccaneers

Another thing just occurred to me about players insisting on running through dungeons at top speed, and getting all toxic about taking more than 3.2 seconds from boss-to-boss.

The problem is that dungeon encounters are not as dangerous as they were back in EverQuest. Players realized they could progress faster, and so they do.

Dungeons in WoW are not designed for piecemeal smart pulls that avoid dangerous pats. They are designed linearly, with M+ trash packs and simple dungeon quests in mind. There are no extra areas that yield special quests or rewards. Mob placement is simple and does not necessitate patience or much strategy with respect to pathing. The dungeons are simple, and so players approach them simplistically.

Whether WoW should have more dungeons like EverQuest is up for debate, but I think most players nowadays would view those dungeons as chores after doing so many dungeons in WoW just as they’ve been all these years.

[Nezat-moon-guard]

See, most folks aren’t really here to smell the roses while they’re in dungeons, because most folks main goal is to get to end game and grind that out for progression. I don’t blame them for wanting to get through those dungeons as quickly as possible, especially if you’re running randoms multiple times a day, often times the same dungeon over and over again from crap rng. That’s just a gameplay choice and that doesn’t make it any more or less valid than you wanting to take your time.

[Makua-malganis]

Continuing on this analogy should they not just go get food somewhere that actually accommodates their diet and lifestyle that they enjoy in life?

Further- This makes an extremely broad assumption that everyday at the burger joint all customers are asinine and cruel. Which is just not true, however asking for sushi at a burger joint sure seems odd!

[Bringerz-burning-legion]

I hope they make the solo game more fun than Delves though… Like Solo queus for Arena is the best thing ever happened. now we have Solo RBGS.

Mage towers in Legion were good thing. What I want to see is a whole new experience of fighting Raid by your own. with much more harder mechanics and getting rewarded

[Balthazarre-whitemane]

@Sendryn-sentinels

@Abombshield-grobbulus

Best most fun dungeons of my life right now are follower Dungeons.

I put my followers on lead. And they don’t lead.

I’m new to this dungeon. I don’t have a freakin’ clue what to do or where to go. So lead, ya silly dwarves!

As long as I stay near the tank he keeps pulling. I haven’t run into this unless I am too far away from the tank.

@Sendryn-sentinels

But noooooo… they stand there and ping something. Okay. You want me to figure out how to jump down a three story hole and not die with zero communication as to how.

When I get to this part, the tank says in chat to jump down there. Watch your chatlog. One of them he even says to aim for the water.

Still, nothing beats running dungeons with friends. It’s no substitute, but nice when you don’t want to fill in empty spots with strangers.

[Makua-malganis]

There are many, many better singleplayer games with dungeon crawling.

Wanting that as your main source of enjoyment from WoW is pissing your ONLINE sub fee into the wind

[Joonhwa-stormrage]

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

You’re still ignoring what is being said, learn to read. It’s not just M+, this is a problem that permeates all levels of group content. Try queueing up for a regular dungeon in LFG and more often than not, the people will be pissed if you don’t haul through it at warp speed.

It’s not just M+ but the constant negative behavior exists there as well. It makes group content unbearable in pugs.

What does that have to do with my original point about M+ follower dungeons rewarding “competitive” rewards with regular M+? It sounds like you prefer to remove M+ from the game.

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

Then you are the exception, and you need to understand that.

Why so fatalistic? Run your own keys, and the control you get to have empowers you to create a non-toxic group.

[Undraxis-arygos (Undraxis)]

Anything that forces you to lost control of progress through content is very off-putting regardless of reason. I stopped mythic+ just cuz of the timer. I reduced my dungeon runs because of the go go go mentality. I stopped conventional raiding because time issues had to take account the group. I wish Delves and Follower dungeons gave gear as good as LFR so i can enjoy the game as i see fit instead of having to worry about needing some other biological to help. Selfish I know, but I never was a people person anyway.

[Keldarien-hellscream]

You mean delves right Heroic and M+ delves, if they add a M+ mode to delves it should not reward gear of M+. But the M+ mode would let people train to improve their skills with their class. In a none stress environment. This I can fully support.