Um… what? I was asked to provide other people who said 2h was better. I gave 3 post numbers, which are citations by the way, of where you said 2h was better than DW. I can add a 4th now too, but you are just wrong because you do not understand that a buff to Frost Strike is not a buff to DW because 2h used it too.
Ugh, we REALLY need that ignore button back to shut her up good if she won’t stop this endless BS. It’s been going on for so damn long I wanna just take everything I need to use to reforge Frostmourne proper, and then when it’s done, challenge her to a duel to prove her wrong so badly.
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I think everyone needs to take a deep breath here. This thread is becoming toxic, unproductive, and divisive.
Both sides have good points. On the one hand, the 2H people want more options for weapons and transmog, don’t want to have to collect extra weapons to fill out their kit, and prefer fewer but larger bursts of damage. I personally can’t fault anyone for these desires.
On the other hand, there have been a few posts from people who prefer DW, and re-introducing 2H to Frost presents logistical issues.
One of the logistical issues with bringing 2H back is that it will likely, in my opinion, not merely be giving the option. There is a lot of time designing and coding to put that back in. This is time, energy, and resources not spent on other things that people want just as much (such as fixes to their own specs, or bug fixes, or improved professions, etc.).
If Blizz brings back 2H to Frost, and it consistently does less damage than DW, will people complain about that? I think likely so. That has a possibility of becoming just as toxic as the current conversation is threatening to become as people demand parity for their preferred weapon style. Pursuing such damage parity will likewise demand more time trouble shooting and coding, which is again time and energy not spent on other issues. (This is not to say such endeavor is pointless, but Blizz must be convinced it is not pointless if they’re to make any change.)
If granted 2H, will people wonder why they now have to do with only one runeforge? Possibly, and this has been touched on a bit in one of these threads already. Someone suggested combining two runeforges into one. Blood and UH already only get to use one runeforge; we don’t get to combine two on one weapon. I don’t see any reason why Blizz might change this other than wishful thinking. But this is a very real logistical consequence of the proposed change back to 2H, and it’s not clear to me whether the 2H proponents are willing to make this trade-off.
All of this is aside and apart from Blizz re-introducing Frostmourne into the game, whether for plot or transmog purposes. Frostmourne, in my view, is a separate issue from the 2H discussion generally, but similarly polarizing.
Both of these are aside and apart from the lore issues that keep getting brought up. (I understand the lore issues. In my view, WoW is a game first and a story second. Blizz bends the story to fit the game they’re trying to sell. Sometimes that’s entertaining and sometimes not.)
I have seen both sides in this debate present good points and bad points, and both sides poke and provoke the other side.
Please take a deep breath and calm down.
No matter what Blizz does here, people will complain. In my view, I suspect Blizz generally considers which set of complaints they would rather deal with when making design decisions. (This is not to say this is the only or even most important criterion, but merely a contributing factor.) I suspect that as long as we are polarized and toxic with each other as a Death Knight community on these issues, Blizz will not seriously consider touching them.
If we want change in this game for our class and lore, we must be civil with each other first, and then civil with Blizz. Otherwise we’re all wasting our time arguing with random internet avatars to no end or purpose.
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Just because you were proven wrong you want an ignore button lol.
Aka, I want an echo chamber.
A little secret, it’s not larger bursts of damage, it would actually be less damage unless a rune was made. It would be just an illusion.
It’s also a, yes people will complain about it. If they are complaining about not having the option, they are going to complain about doing less damage on the majority of the kit. Obliterate will still hit like it does.
There is also the issue of, if they open this can of worms for frost, they will have to do it for everyone. 2h enhancement, glad stance, SMF, 2h dps monk, possibly 2h dh since there are 2h demon hunters in lore. Where do you stop? Should death knights be the special snowflake? Should blizzard waste their time trying to make all these other specs work when there are much bigger issues like say the gearing problem?
Most of these people don’t read, want evidence and when provided don’t want it for some reason and on and on and on. They don’t even want to answer simple questions. It’s a rules for thee and not for me type of mentality, almost like a religion or even a cult.
They have started character bashing, they started the “these people are the same because I say so” nonsense, some talk about physical violence even if they don’t want to admit it or say “I was explaining the reference” even though the reference is physical violence and they said they wanted to do it to me specifically. They have called people bastards, daft, morons and other insults. Spam the same nonsense and then say others are creating this circular conversation.
If there is anything that is going to prevent 2h from coming back, it’s their actions.
You can’t even make a thread to talk about the spec gameplay without the first post being “bring back 2h and then we will talk” and then it devolves into yet another 2h thread. What have people like me done? Call people out on their bs while actually coming up with a solution?
Just a quick note on this that I and at least a couple others in here don’t just want 2H back for frost we also want DW back for blood and unholy too. Two runes on a 2H could be a class wide thing.
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Acknowledge all.
If DW was introduced with blood and unholy it would be a self nerf and only used by those that want a look and wouldn’t be brought into groups. Just like 2h frost, if brought back, would be a self nerf.
It would also have to be runeforges being combined because if you make it so 2h can have 2 enchant slots, it’s very likely it would be game wide and not class specific.
Blood and unholy both have no DW benefits.
Fair enough.
Let’s talk for a few minutes about the possible consequences of Blizz doing this. (Disclaimer, I’m not a game designer/coder, I don’t pretend to know how much work is involved in designing and coding this game.)
Blizz has limited time and energy to spend on class design, balancing, and de-bugging. SL has to be out in a certain time window. Let’s say Blizz spends some of their time and energy coding 2H and DW into all DK specs. This is probably some not insignificant amount of resources.
I have to admit that Kelliste makes some valid points, as I understand them. (Disclaimer: I don’t speak for Kelliste, I don’t mean to put words in her mouth, I’m just speaking from my impressions of her posts.) Is this a better use of Blizz’s time and energy than other things they could do for our class? For example, is this better than bringing back Blood Presence, or un-nerfing Bone Shield, or replacing Wraith Walk with Improved Death’s Advance? They can’t do everything.
This is a decision point for Blizz: Given their limited time and other resources, what is the priority?
Further, if Blizz re-visits the weapon style issue for DKs, will other classes demand the same? For example, in other threads, some Hunters are asking for ranged Survival spec back. Others are asking for a second bow-using class. Back in Vanilla and TBC, all toons used to have ranged slots in addition to melee slots. Will people demand that back for Rogues and Hunters? What about an extra wand slot for casters so they can equip a wand and weapon at the same time? Will those players point to Blizz re-visiting the weapon issue for DKs and demand the same for their own classes? Does any of this mean less time and energy for other things they’ve already decided are a priority?
This is another decision point for Blizz: How much risk are they willing to assume in upsetting other players by re-visiting this issue for DKs?
I don’t know the answers to these questions. I would like to suggest that this discussion could be more productive for everyone involved if we spent a little time thinking through the consequences to Blizz and players of other classes of what we’re asking for.
Now, if people want to argue that bringing 2H back to Frost, or DW back to UH and Blood ought to be the priority, fair enough. But why should Blizz agree? Why is the risk for them comparatively outweighed by the payoff? After all, they make that decision, not any of us.
That’s not a citation. You can go to the post and quote me. Nobody cares enough to finger through a post number. Please stop.
You keep saying this over and over but haven’t given a single citation.
DW focused on Frost Strike. 2H was not oriented around it. The damage was different due to the passives and the original template, so a 15% buff to Frost Strike was far more critical for DW than 2H. Frost Strike was a Runic Power dump and Runic Empowerment factory after spamming Obliterate with a 2H.
[Citation Needed]
This entire segment is finger-pointing and slander, and has done nothing for the discussion but prompt further toxicity and hostility. I’ve asked you to stop referencing me and other posters in a negative manner several times, but you keep doing it. You are not contributing to the discussion anymore. I don’t give one iota if I get banned for saying any of this.
You have been asked several times to stop talking about people.
You are harassing the posters in this thread.
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You also have to ask, would it accomplish anything overall? They have a history of removing things that just don’t perform. Hybrid builds, rune options, DW for certain specs and 2h for others. They have stated why they made some of these changes. They want things to be a no brainer to where you don’t have to go out and see which weapon set is better, what talent build is best so you aren’t hurting yourself with a sub par build like say per a pet blood dk dps which you could do in wrath.
You can argue that it hasn’t actually happened since gearing is a nightmare and you have to constantly sim yourself unless you just don’t care or aren’t pushing content. Have to sim talents so you don’t take something like drain soul for affliction that is, or at least was, a dps loss over not taking a talent at all.
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It’s a citation. Or do you not know what that is? It’s a cite to what was written by you so it’s a citation. Don’t like it? Too bad.
I did give citations. you just didn’t read my post, which you admitted to doing, so how can you even say there were no citations?
Yes, DW had a focus on frost strike in MoP and WoD through ToT or MotFW depending on the expansion. What’s your point? You clearly don’t understand that a frost strike buff is a spec buff. DW might benefit from it more, but 2h still benefits from it as well, making it a spec buff. Just like a buff to obliterate is a spec buff. It’s why it makes it a nightmare to balance and I don’t see how you can’t understand this.
If DW needed buffing then buff ToT or MotFW by increasing the bonus damage to frost strike which is what’s these abilities purposes were for. If you are buffing the core abilities that both weapons had access to then it means the spec is behind and needs adjustment.
And I don’t follow your rules for thee not for me mentality. If you don’t want me to name names when asked then your side needs to stop with their bs. How many times has Frostlich talked trash about me? How many times did I tell them to stop and did they listen?
Sorry, but unless you want to start reporting the people on your side then you are just being a hypocrite. Again, it’s not a rules for thee but not for me type of forum.
Honestly, like someone said before me, an echo chamber would be preferable over having to deal with your walls of text constantly.
It wasn’t a reply to you so why do you care? And you don’t get to dictate how long my posts are. You don’t want to read them then don’t, but then you can’t say I ignore what people say when I actually do address things.
That specific post WAS a reply to me though. I checked before. I even checked it yet again just now.
You mean the post 5 hours ago?
Question:
Answer:
A lot more*
You have named ME. SEVERAL TIMES. I told you to STOP. You don’t decide if that is okay or not. You STOP. Don’t even try that with me. The actions of other posters do not justify yours. You’ve been naming me in conversations I wasn’t even involved in, and that is harassment. I’m not responsible for the actions of other people just because they agree with me. You’re targeting me. That is blatantly against the CoC.
Harassing or Defamatory
This category includes both clear and masked language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:
- Insultingly refer to other characters, players, Blizzard employees, or groups of people
- Result in ongoing harassment to other characters, players, Blizzard employees, or groups of people
If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:
- Be given a temporary ban from the forums, depending upon severity
Harassment takes many forms, and is not necessarily limited to the type of language used, but the intent. Repeatedly targeting a specific player with harassment can lead to more severe action. The idea behind this is to prevent any one player from consistently being uncomfortable in the forums.
Then you take that up with him or report him. What I am telling you is that you keep referencing me after I have told you stop doing it, countless times now.
I have made at least three posts telling them to stop with the language. Did you just happen to miss those while you were scanning the thread history? Also, more finger-pointing.
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Nope, not going to stop, again it’s not a rules for thee and not for me type of situation. And I was asked to provides names and I found your posts. Too bad.
Thanks for linking those things so your side can read them carefully, because they have been doing exactly that.
A reference to you is not harassment or defamatory.
Don’t know what report them means? Ohhh that’s right he’s on your side of the fence, I forgot that unless they are on your side they get no warnings.
If frost strike was buffed during wrath was that a DW buff? Also, just because a weapon set benefits from it more means nothing when it’s a buff to both weapon sets. Sorry, but that’s not how it works. They had ToT and MotFW they could have buffed to independently buff or nerf 2h or DW. You have to look at those to see if weapon sets were buffed or not. It’s like saying DW was buffed because howling blast was buffed just because it benefits more to DW. It’s a buff across the board no matter what you say, end of story.
I tried to get her to stop though, and when I saw others arguing with her, I was just trying to tell them it wasn’t worth it at all. But yeah, this is getting very old and annoying. I think it’s best if I don’t even mention her in this case. But if telling others “it’s not worth it” sets her off too, then I guess I need to not do that too.
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