all of the class foruns are dead anyway, the popularity of discords, end of patch fatigue and the loss of subs let those small areas be a desert.
the oficial foruns are more for feedback(mostly ignored), complaint or some random shenanigans in the general area.
I agree with what you said here. We should get 2h back and keep DW. I like to see and test both aspects. But ultimately there are people who want to force change on other players by moving dw to unholy and returning to nothing but 2h for frost. Here is my thoughts on everytyhing. First I am learning unholy but if people who play unholy spec want to dw then add it in for them. But do not force a spec to go dw. Like what blizzard did to frost.
There are those that do not want 2h to come back to frost. I do not see what the problem is. Let those that want 2h go back to 2h. Let those that have been forced to see dw because of blizzard decide which they want to play as 2h or dw.
And yes Blizzard could give is Frostmourne as a 2h weapon skin two ways. First is when we take the shards of Frostmourne to the forge they give us a button to click that combines them into 2h Frostmourne. Or… When we go into shadowlands we meet the person that actually created the dk artifact weapons. Have him give us the option to fix/return Frostmourne to being a 2h sword. This would give those frost dks that want to use the Frostmourne as a 2h weapon their dream.
Personally I liked the artifact weapons. It took a part of rng that was annoying out of it which was something that I could never get to drop for me which is weapons. (I know this has nothing to do with what is going on in this thread. But it is my 2 cents as getting weapons is the hardest part of gearing for me at least.)
And now for other specs. I have payed as a Blood DK, and mostly a Frost DK, I had lvled as an Unholy DK as I thought the pet was awesome. But at the time my guild did not want a Unholy DK they wanted frost, they considered Unholy weak at the time. Personally I think blizzard should on it up let us use what ever weapons we want. If we want to use 2h let us use it. If we want to dw let us dw. I just do not like the arguments where people are saying we should never get those options.
Most of us here actuly play DKs and love the class. None of the specs should be forced to be dw or 2h.
And not to be snotty but in the newest cinematic from Blizzard shows Lady Liadrin who is a paladin dw swords that look like Heart-Lesion Blade but its been colored for paladins so it has gold in where the blue should be. But in the past she has been mostly 2h or 1h and shield. In the paladin forums there are paladins asking for dw.
I would say anyone advocating for keeping out 2h is really just trolling because it’s such an easy bite. You say it once and the forum explodes with people responding.
Unholy would also need a lot to bring unholy into the mix and historically has always been 2h outside of a big that people abused.
There is a big lore hole with the forge. How do demons get to the shadowlands since they are basically immortal even when you cut them down. Even the race of demons that made the helm sword and armor, like Mal’ganis, have died and came back. So Blizzard has to solve how they would have gotten to the shadowlands without dying and not going again what ion said on stage that there is no way in (aside from death) and no way out. The Lich King is the product of demons not the shadowlands.
That in itself, while trying to reasonably explain how the destruction of the LK helm opens up a hole in the sky, and Frostmourne shattering and realeasing it’s countless souls didn’t do anything when it happened in the same location.
I honestly like it that Paladins never use DW, cause not only does it make absolutely no sense at all, there’s already far too many DW specs out there. So no need for any more of em at all. There’s only 2 or 4 2h DPS specs now anyway, and if we had Gladiator’s Stance Warriors still, they would be pretty much one of the first DPS with a sword and shield.
And I still think there’s a huge craze for DW that wasn’t necessary at all, and those guys you mentioned remind me why I thought that. Not just the 2h Frost vs DW Frost arguments, and the result of all that with Frost’s current state, ever since Legion and BfA.
The same argument can be made about this 2h craze that isnt necessary since the weapon selected makes no difference. You want a playstyle back that just so happened to use a 2h.
The playstyle can be applied to the spec and it all comes down to what Blizzard actually does. If you get access to 2h weapons, it would not bring back what you actually want since the abilities are based on attack power and not weapon damage and would actually need a spec rework which I would say the majority of frost players actually want.
Then why not add 2h Frost back before reworking the spec, and then start from there while reworking and improving Frost as a whole? If Blizz actually bothers and gets off their lazy butts, I think it would be possible. Also, I believe there is indeed still a DW craze, and not a 2h one like you claimed. Cause of how DW’s featured a lot in media, and how so many of the melee DPS specs in WoW are all DW, and very little 2h ones. Sorry Kelliste, but I don’t believe that first part at all.
Because the weapon does not matter in terms of the spec. It can be added in at any point, it can be added tomorrow of half way through Shadowlands. Its a certain playstyle that people want and not this focus talents.
I really dont care about other classes, some classes are fully DW based on lore like DH and Rogue unless you want to give DH to use agi staves since there have been some that used scythes.
If you look who does use 2h weapons are all str users with 1 agility user using a 2h. Agility doesnt really fit with using a 2h axe sword or mace but a staff would fit kind of like certain monks out there that use staves.
But there is this 2h craze, you just have to look through these threads to see the 2h craze and fanaticism. You are even suggesting that more specs/classes should get 2h, but who is saying more DW?
I also dont get what you mean that its featured a lot in media. Just because its shown or that its actually pushed?
Like I said an acrobatic rogue would make sense with a staff. Kind of like the… oh what is that thief specialization in GW2. I remember, a daredevil. Its actually quite fun as well.
Its a problem that isnt actually a problem. Just fix the spec and remove the restrictions on weapons while giving 2h a rune that combines Fallen Crusader and Razorice.
Here is an exercise. Ignoring weapons, create what you want from the spec. Like what you want Obliterate to do, what you want Frost Strike to do, FF and so on. I just want to know what you want to see from the spec while ignoring both DW and 2h. Fair?
Oh, and its actually fine if you ignore most of that post if you just want to skip to the end. I rather do that exercise.
I’ve done the counting for the record, and we have the following for DW vs 2h to prove my point about there being a DW craze, and not 2h.
There’s 1 DW (Frost, bleh) and 1 2h (Unholy, unfortunately, as in it’s the only 2h DPS option, I don’t think it should be DW only, though I can understand why some want DW Unholy and how it would fit) for Death Knight DPS. 1 DW DPS for Shaman (Enhance) but no 2h DPS (I think it should be a hammer (or 1h in general) and shield DPS honestly, though a 2h option would be nice too). 1 DW DPS but no 2h DPS for Druid. 1 DW DPS for Demon Hunter, though it makes sense since none of them use 2h, and I can’t picture a 2h Demon Hunter. 1 2h DPS for Paladin with no DW DPS (as it should be, DW makes no sense on Paladins). All 3 Rouges are DW DPS, but for once, we can both agree that 2h won’t make sense for them either. Survival is 2h DPS, but would make more sense as DW cause of Rexxar. Warrior has 1 DW DPS (Fury) and 1 2h DPS (Arms). And finally, Windwalker Monks are DW too (but they should be able to use both 2h and DW in my opinion, the choice never mattered for real back before Legion anyway). That makes 9 DW DPS, and only 4 2h DPS! Far fewer than DW by a lot! And you you claim there’s a 2h craze, when I was stating how obvious the DW craze was with so many DW DPS. Sorry Kelliste, but I’m STILL don’t agree with you, for the most part anyway.
But about lifting weapon restrictions, that’s EXACTLY what I wanted Blizz to do with Frost DKs, and the other classes and specs that were weapon-locked if possible, but Frost DKs most of all. And about Obliterate, as DW, it doesn’t perform like it’s namesake at all. As 2h Frost, I want Obliterate to actually perform as it’s namesake and hit very hard. Frost Strike would do damage too, but it’s mainly the frost damage attack that slows your opponent down. And make em more vulnerable to Obliterate I think. I need to think on the other abilities some more, but BoS would make it so that you don’t need it to do good DPS at all, it’s just there for fun and slowing your enemies even more, maybe even frostbite em, while crushing them with a 2 hander.
Lastly, for the media thing, did you know that there’s Sword Art Online where the main guy uses DW, I don’t like that, but as a character, he’s not bad. Also, in Game of Thrones, one guy fought off an army with JUST a single sword in the book, but in the TV series, they made him dual-wield instead. That’s part of why I feel there’s a DW craze.
I originally was writing this before you posted also, but I added responses to your post after you posted, so it may seems like a lot of text, so sorry about that. But I hope I have a point still with how I felt there was a DW craze.
Yeah, and these make sense. DK DW’ing does not. If we’re going to go into lore/logic, Warriors should be the ones dual-wielding one-handed strength weapons because Warriors are directly reflective of gladiators, which includes the Dimachaeri, the categorical name for Roman Gladiators that dual-wielded. Anything and anyone with the word “knight” the title used a sword and shield or a 2H. I mean that’s just reality though. It doesn’t have incredible bearing on a fantasy game. Because realistically, DW’ing was an incredibly reckless and foolish way to engage in combat because of the forfeiture of natural utility and defense in favor of an extra blade. I learned this the medium way. Wait, that came out all wrong.
Don’t worry Trumpknight, I know what you mean. But yeah, DW DK normally doesn’t make sense. If they really want Frost to use 1 handers though, I think they should make it have the ability to use a sword and shield like an actual knight. And that’s all too true sadly enough. IRL, DWing 2 swords was considered pretty foolish and has you sacrificing both utility and defense for that extra sword. I think I would be just another body to throw at the enemy if I ever dared try that too. But Warriors don’t necessarily apply to the knight archetypes since they’re based off Roman gladiators like you said, with that even being reflected in Varian himself when he became a gladiator.
Hope you got to see what I wrote too, cause I think both of us had really good points here.
There is a 2h demon hunter, she was in the quests in Azsuna at Illidari Stand from where I can remember.
But again, I dont care about weapons at this point. So you want Obliterate to perform better and hit very hard, Frost Strike to do damage and be a runic power dump (can just add in chillblains for mob slow with FF being on the target so the slow doesnt really need to be on frost strike). Could also switch the vulnerability to Obliterate to FF as well which just brings it back to the point of applying diseases first so you dont have to waste runes on obliterate against a target that isnt vulnerable to it.
Again I just wanted you to ignore the weapons entirely, both 2h and DW.
KM could also give an armor shred since we already have to get crit to proc it which would make that impact of Obliterate feel better since it would ignore some of the armor that reduces the damage output of the ability. Mastery could be completely changed to be that the vulnerability that FF would apply would increase the with more mastery, and apply to everything. It brings back the disease interaction that the Dk used to have, while also promoting good gameplay and brings Obliterate into mastery without turning it into frost damage making it just another Frost Strike that hits harder.
BoS might work better if it just replaced a dps cd. Could remove Frozen Pulse change how BoS does its damage and does a blast of frost damage to the target and a cone behind the target with the Breath of Sindragosa. Better than what we have with BoS right now while keeping some of its playstyle where you want to get the most attacks out during that duration, could also make it only work with Obliterate.
Now with that build. Just add the weapons in and create a 2h runeforge that combines Fallen Crusader and Razorice, use the weapon you want, you get your playstyle as well and so do other people because a lot of Frost players dont like this iteration of frost whether it performs or not. No difference in playstyle so balance is easy, everyone wins to the best as anyone could possibly get it.
And yes, Kirito had a DW skill, the only person to have it, which he kept a secret until Gleam Eyes. In other iterations he kept it a secret as well even if the system didnt support attacks with DW like against General Eugene and he didnt use DW in GGO but he used a sword in a way in the game no one seen before. I think DW is cool in the berserker side of things. Fury, physical damage berserker. Frost, initially a DW berserker with Icy Talons and hard hits amount to that of 2h damage, Kirito in SAO against Gleam Eyes and General Eugene, The old Studen Council President in Tenchi Muyo War on Geminar that got bloodlust in battle that just attacked anything that moved so her teammates should stand still and not get in her way.
The point of the exercise was to create a spec without weapon influence that both weapons could be applied to. That is what I have actually been advocating for.
Also, just through lore alone, Dk’s were raised from anything. Warriors, Paladins, if you fell in battle you could be raised as one of the Lich Kings knights. A knight is just someone who served his (or her) sovereign or lord as a mounted soldier in armor. They were the Lich Kings death knights, to serve him and to bring about death to bolster his ranks. His purpose was to create an undead army in the first place, its just Ner’zhul betrayed the Burning Legion yet again and creating this army for himself which I have heard was to fight the actually threat of the old gods since the undead are immune to their whispers. Eventually to possible fight the Void Lords?
The lore is all over the place and I really dont like using it.
If you were to go to the paladin class forums you will find people advocating for dw paladin dps spec. And some saying to have ret dw. I have a paladin and posted on him about a 4th spec question and that came up quite a lot. If they are not careful and it happens they will get the frost dk treatment where blizz removes 2h for dw and keeps it that way.
Well thats not the same at all. Frost had both, one was better for dps, they tried to balance them while having 2 seperate playstyles which clearly didnt work out and the underperformer was removed, or Blizzard hated 2h. Pick your reason.
Paladin would be trying to get something they never had as a playable character. Lore is screwed anyways and quite frankly im tired of it being brought up with it being full of contradictions and holes.
The ultimate question is, would the spec work properly if you added in the other weapon. 2h frost would work, people dont like the playstyle and realistically I would lean towards most people not liking it, but the spec would still function just fine if a 2h was just taped onto it.
Would that happen with the paladin spec if you just introduced DW? Not really a paladin player so I have absolutely no clue aside from the nutty healing back in wrath and my guild needed a healer so I picked the paladin. Thats about all I know aside from some very basic stuff.
Well I am a paladin If you look on the forums you will find my paladin Illuminat. Now that being said. What would happen if ret was also allowed dw I can honestly say I have no idea. And not mentioning lore just from purely game play wise I would like to see. Depending on how it ran. But I have always seen ret as Arms Warriors or 2h Fost DK you get big fat juicy crits on your weapon. Although Paladins are more of a defensive class. We would get more procs from Art of War(Resets the cd of Blade of Justice) and Empyrean Power(Makes our next Divne Storm free of cost and it dose extra dps). But like we see with frost DK’s we would most likely hit like a limp noodle. Now there was a segment of the paladin players wanting a 4th spec and some wanted them to be ranged dps casters or dw dps.
If they added DW to ret then it would be interesting to see the results but there are those out there that want that to happen. I am just concerned that if it did happen that we would end up losing 2h like frost did. Blizz says its now about player agency but really I would just take that with a grain of salt until they lift weapon restrictions and start fixing classes.
Yeah, that’s what I’m worried about too. Besides, Ret makes sense using a 2 hander, not DW. But if they really want Ret to suffer the same fate as Frost DKs, then those fools need to stop and see how DW Paladin both doesn’t make sense, and how unhappy many DKs are with Frost currently. And what you said was part of why I felt there was a dual-wielding craze sadly enough. And like you said before, Blizz needs to remove those stupid weapon restrictions and start fixing the classes both. Also, I don’t think we need a ranged Paladin honestly, we got Priests to fill in that role already anyway. And like you said, Paladins are mainly a defensive class, so DW doesn’t really fit that image either, but 2 handers and swords and shields do.
Well, since abilities are all calculated by attack power now, it’s new in BFA, like obliterate is 120%attack power 60%+60% calculated by both weapons, I would expect DW would work the same as 2h ret and do similar damage maybe even more because like DW frost, it will have another enchant to work with.
Right now weapons actually have very little to do. It’s a stat stick, and weapon damage calculates white hits. That’s really all they do. They could give ret a 2x4 with the same str as your normal weapons and your abilities would do the same damage. Before calculating other stats of course.
That’s why it’s better to ask if DW would work in the spec. If it had auto attack procs that drives DW ahead, enchants, or some weird interaction that might not work or just be broken like DW unholy that had a life of about a week due to a bug.
You don’t have to worry about ability damage though. You could probably play ret with a 1h and shield (if blizzard didn’t restrict it to 2h only) and see similar damage numbers but weaker auto attacks.
That’s the thing even in D3 for example. DW works better just overall because instead of getting 2 legendary affixes, you get 3 and it’s a huge buff with certain builds.
If you can stack 2 modifiers in terms of dps enchants, with the attack power focus of abilities, DW does work better.
DW frost gets a 15% str buff and a 15% frost buff for basically nothing. Most of the frost kit are spells, HB, chains of ice for cold heart, BoS, remorseless winter, glacial advance if you take it, frostwyrm, frost fever. And all benefit from those 2 runeforges and weapons don’t play a role in any of it.
So for ret, DW would use what 2 enchants, and how much of the kit is actual weapon strikes? Crusader strike, templars verdict? Divine storm is in that weird limbo place that you can say it’s a spell, or a weapon strike since you spin with your weapon to create it. Blade of justice is a spell, execution sentence is a spell. Still have hammer of wrath? It’s a spell or I would consider it one since you aren’t using your weapon. Judgement? Another spell. So it would seem that DW would just flat out be better due to weapon damage meaning nothing.
Ret has historically used a 2h, plus they don’t have the ability to DW so I would at least assume you don’t have to worry about ret.
Frost might get 2h, it might not, but overall the spec needs a fixing because it just sucks to play and weapons other than some runeforges and km proc increase, DW doesn’t really do much with the spec.
Well unlike Frost and Oberlate our hardest hitting attack Templar’s Verdict uses holy which senergisez with our mastery which increases our holy damage .
Blade of Justice, Crusader Strike, Templar’s verdict, Wake of Ashes and Divine storm. All of those are melee but some of them change the melee damage to holy damage. Boj and CS are melee damage, while the other three are still melee but the damage is changed to holy damage. And the procs in my other post are all auto attack procs.
Dw could work. Again I am afrade of blizz trying to remove 2h like they did frost.
And for the ranged dps for paladin. I just think if blizz wanted to they could add a button to holy that would turn our healing spells into dps. Just think you see a paladin pop wings and then see a Orb of holy energy come flying at our target doing damage.
They wouldn’t remove 2h, in fact they probably wouldn’t add DW. It’s not like they are lifting any restriction since ret never even had the option. It’s along the same lines of dk asking to use a ranged weapon.