Well, either way. For the very brief time cinderglacier was in the game, it made dual wield a nuke spec. But that’s all dual wield had going for it besides hitting people with Frost Strike once Threat of Thassarian was released. And that never, ever compared to Two-Hander’s Obliterate.
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No, it’s about the effectiveness of 2H vs 1H weapon attacks. DK could use a staff and have good spell damage. The argument is about the effectiveness of melee attacks. Frost’s melee attacks are just plain weak right now. I find it ridiculous that my Auto-Attack outpaces my Obliterates. I shouldn’t be landing 5-10k Auto-Attacks while my Obliterates do 12k base damage. 30-35k on burst crits.
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I have death coils hitting for well over 40,000.
My Rime procs max out at 26k, 36k on crits? I’m jealous.
But it’s not hard to burst as frost, especially in M+. It’s easier too, not requiring the setup that unholy needs.
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There are so many hypocritical posts towards the later part of this thread. For one thing, no one is playing 2h Frost right now, so no one can play it to defend it if that is the thought process that I have seen then your argument is weak.
Frost has a lot more abilities to use than it used to. Single target it had Howling Blast, Plague Strike, Obliterate, Frost Strike and Blood Strike. Blood strike was just there to convert runes, when rune conversion went away, then there was even leass (where the faceroll spec came from). It was pretty much a game of whack a mole, and when you have so few damaging abilities those abilities have some impact to them. We might have lost Plague Strike, but we gained BoS, we gained the Frostwyrm ability, we gained Frostscythe, Remorseless Winter and they all scale with Mastery and only 1 ability doesnt, Obliterate. With how the spec scales with mastery and how much is frost damage, of course the abilities arent going to hit for that much.
Cinderglacier also sucked as a rune, even back in Wrath. The proc rate was so bad that it really wasnt worth it to give up the increase in frost damage from razorice that was regular.
Unholy DW was also a short lived thing. The only place that I ever heard about Unholy DW was when Sudden Doom was being procced by the offhand as well which was a bug. For some reason I want to say it was in Cata, but either way people were basically machine gunning Death Coils. They fixed it in like a week or less of it coming and that was that.
I also hardly ever heard of 2h frost in Wrath. I also highly doubt you guys were going around in taking random polls of who was a 2h Frost Dk and who was DW. A lot of times it was just limited by 1h weapon drops that people were 2h.
I would solo the ICC dungeons, at least the trash so I could constantly reset it for Battered Hilt drops, as Unholy. Tanked as DW frost, also DPS’ed as DW and even dabbled in Blood.
If you want 2h as a playable option then just say you want it because you want it. But when you start trying to say Unholy should be DW, Frost should be 2h because Frostmourne or DW should be removed, or 1h weapons arent real weapons, or whatever else then its just not going to work.
If people really want it back, you have to be realistic. I mean technically you can run around with a 2h weapon in Frost right now, even play like Bolvar with autos and Remorseless Winter unless they made that weapon specific.
I have absolutely no agenda to push. I dont care if 2h is an option or not. It could come back tomorrow, but I would guarantee no one would like it if it was just added back because the spec is poorly designed and I havent seen a Dk that actually likes playing it even if it does have good damage output.
By all means bring it back, but how a lot of 2h advocates act it really, really, REALLY makes me want it to never show up again. Some people really dont deserve it to be back.
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Okay i have seen you comment in a lot of theese threads, so let me try to answer you on a personal level. First, you probably are a way better player that have played for way longer with a better understanding how things have been in the past. I started sometime in WoD, and played 2h frost. Not because it was the best spec for dps (but to my understanding it was at one point in WoD?) but because it looked and felt “the coolest”. The big obliterate hits also fit my perspective of the class fantasy, which is entirely my opninion on it, and many disagree. Thats fine.
The point which I am making in many of theese threads is that 2h frost should come back as an OPTION. I fully agree with you that it should NOT come at the expense of something else, like unholy being forced to DW, or DW frost to go away. More options for the players can only be a good thing in my opinion, no matter which playstyle turn out to be best for the pure dps numbers, and regardless of which playstyle have preformed the best in the past.
IF this became a thing, and everyone would be able to pick the option that suited them best, wouldn’t you agree that would be a good thing? You say you don’t care for it, so my guess is that you would avoid it. Why would it matter to anyone but myself what weapon i run around with, provided that it is an option? We know 2h frost had flawes but so what? We’re mostly aware of it and it still fit our playstyle and view of the spec better.
First of someone pointed out my language being cringy in another post, english is not my first language and i’m sorry if anything is wrong regarding that. Second i am not trying to attack you here at all. Your opinion on the matter is just as valuable as mine and everyone else’s, but the point i am trying to make is that all of the options can and should exist in a RPG like this. Hopefully it makes sense.
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Even just as a transmog option i would be ok with it, bring 2H frost back
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I could beat people w shadowmourne as dw armor pen. I’d say they were competitive before I said one outperformed the other.
Oh, I never said there weren’t benefits to 2h. A big one is it’s easier to get 1 2h than it is to get 2 1h weapons. The issue is when you try to bring back why it was removed in the first place.
I really don’t care if 2h comes back or not. If it does, great, if it doesn’t then it’s blizzard sticking to their statement that it isn’t coming back. They had 3 expansions of trying to separate the 2, trying to make them unique and balanced but overall they failed.
Not only would bringing back what some want with this certain playstyle, they would have to bring back other sub specs. Gladiator Stance, Dark Apotheosis even though it was a glyph it still created a sub spec, Sing Minded Fury and any other sub specs there were.
Some 2h just want to use a2h even if it was less damage, like back in Wrath. It wasn’t this huge gap, but it was enough that all the guides didn’t even go into talking about 2h. Some just want a glyph, which it seems like it would work and not like holding a 2h weapon and transmogging it to 1h weapons where only the main hand has an attack visual. The swings would be as fast as your main hand.
There really isn’t that many 2h people stating on how to bring back 2h and just try to change history to say why it should come back other than things it could accomplish. But there is another reason why Blizzard has taken it away which is the same reason they took away some mechanics like rune conversion, keeping 2 diseases on the target and spreading diseases with pestilence. Because it confuses some people and they wanted to streamline things for the sake of bad players. If you only have one choice it’s pretty easy to know which is better.
Trying to take away as many differences as possible, while still having a fun spec to play which I agree obliterate should hit harder, is the best possible scenario to bring back 2h.
Right and i believe i get your point, but i first and foremost believe that players should be able to choose for themselves what playstyle suits them the best in a RPG. You mention how it have been watered down to make things easier which is fair enough but they are bringing “some” stuff back, and before 9.0 launches would be the time to tell developers what we want.
How 2h frost have played historicly and how it compares to dw i personally feel don’t really matter nearly as much as our own choice of how our character should be played. Yes, if one is doing 50 % more dps than the other there is an issue there that need to be corrected, that goes without saying. Removing the choice is not the way to do that in my opinion.
At the same time i feel like there is a difference between a sub-spec and a weapon-choice for a spec, but i might be more wrong than i realise there so i’m not gonna expand upon that. Your final sentence there make it look like to me that you and i sort of share a common goal, but correct me if i am wrong. If they manage to minimalize the differences between DW and 2h somehow, and yes definately make obliterate hit harder either way, wouldnt that be the best solution for everyone?
No i am not a game developer, no i dont know how to implement it and how it could work seamless. That doesnt mean we can’t ask for what we want, wouldnt you agree?
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Non, of course it’s the perfect time to say what you want. I just think 2h isn’t anywhere close to the top in priority.
I think the spec needs an entire redesign. I really don’t know where this slow juggernaut class fantasy came from, but they aren’t like King Leoric. They were always anti-mobility in those regards and their gameplay wasn’t slow until they around WoD and beyond. BFA seen us lose a lot of stuff that made the spec at the very least tolerable. Pick up the pace, bring power back to the core abilities and then people can talk about 2h. If you brought back 2h right now people would hate it too because the spec is pretty trash.
Well i certainly will not disagree on any of your points there, it most likely isnt priority 1 to bring back 2h frost for the devs but we can’t know that either way. As in how to “fix” frost im going to leave that up to people more competent in class design than me. I have ideas of what i imagine as “cool” having, f. ex Army back and soul reaper execute, but i don’t know.
There is no shortage of posts regarding 2h frost at the moment tho, and that seems to be what at least quite a few players want back, but i obviously can’t speak for everyone. Can we agree on the point that IF 2h came back either purely aestethic, with matching weapon swing speed and mh + oh numbers added together, that it would satisfy us the 2h beggers and not really hurt anyone else?
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Back in the day it made sense. Frost DKs were slow and kit like a truck… like the Lich King. You don’t see him doing crazy fast moves you see him slow and brutal
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Press X to doubt.
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After bringing Frost 2H back they should make a chainques about us putting the 2 butter knifes back into one and having the true frostmourne
They could say is powerless because it was used to draw sargeras magic, but we could use as transmog, if Demon hunter can, we should be able too
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100% agreed.
https://imgur.com/a/JqdpX
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Oh no, I wouldn’t have a problem at all. Buff Obliterate, scale it with 2H damage, and I’m happy with Frost forever. As of now, my 10k base damage Obliterates aren’t exactly a force to be reckoned with. Haha you should see me in BG’s, tickling away at those pesky healers with 11k Obliterates on burst.
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That isn’t what I said, I said right now. Meaning they made abilities to be used with 2h and that was it.
Your post supports what I said because you would make changes to the spec showing that the spec is clearly not up to par for people. Even DW people want obliterate to hit harder.
If 2h came back tomorrow and it said, frost can now use 2h weapons. People would be happy for all of 10 seconds before they started playing the spec and found it’s even worse with 2h.
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Not damage-wise it’s not. Frost’s melee is just plain bad right now. I just did several BG’s recently and I am sitting on 12k Obliterate crits during burst. Without crits and burst? Pfft, I’m hitting what? 6 or 7k?My melee attacks during burst shouldn’t be tapping players for 5% of their HP. Frost Fever shouldn’t be my #1 highest damaging ability in single target PvP.
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