Evidence to support your claim? Where are the patch notes you are talking about? Can we see them? Why would you say this and then not post the notes to support it? Are we looking at different notes in the same notes?
2 Likes
I’m not sure where they saw that the history of FS was mostly nerfs,
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Frost_Strike
shows a lot of buffs with one or two nerfs
3 Likes
Dreadmoore posted them in another thread to show how many buffs there was.
Most of them were nerfs. Wrath had a nerf with it being able to be dodged parried or blocked and weapon damage was reduced by 5%. Slight buff in Cata up to 130% weapon damage. Nerfed in MoP by 25% weapon damage and then buffed by 10%. WoD seen a 100% buff but with an almost 100% runic power nerf so who knows what came first there, the runic power nerf or damage buff since it seems like it was for PvP. When WoD was increased by another 30% over the course of the expansion which you cannot contribute this buff to 2h vs DW because it could be because Frost was behind other classes and if you actually look at raid logs, it was behind. Plus, it was a buff across the board.
Legion was the biggest buff making it deal 500% of weapon damage up from 88%. Which again, there had to be a nerf somewhere because according to the notes it was doing well over 100% weapon damage (for both DW and 2h since it was a buff to the ability that both weapon sets used) down to 88%.
But now its based on attack power for both hands and it is 31% of attack power + 31% attack power. If you have 7000 attack power that is still a low hit. That is only a 4340 hit. On the other hand if you have 7000 attack power with obliterate it will do 8.4k which should be a 16k crit, basically double that of a Frost Strike crit.
That is just base damage, you would have to calculate in the 10% increase from Razorice, what mastery you have as well, the only thing is you cant apply those buffs to Obliterate. Saying Obliterate has low base damage is just false, its everything else that boosts up Frost damage that Obliterate just doesnt have access too. Plus you have to calculate in the targets armor which will reduce Obliterates damage since it is physical damage. Frost damage, which is magic damage, doesnt have to calculate armor into its damage.
Overall however, you cannot link Frost Strike buffs, even though it looks buffed and nerfed around the same amount of times, to DW being behind since it was buffed for both playstyles since it was just a general buff or nerf. 100% increase to Frost Strike is a 100% increase to Frost Strike, its both a buff to DW and 2h.
Its really not that hard to understand. I could go through it with Obliterate as well and come up with the same conclusion, it was just a general buff or nerf.
How about this, how about we actually do look at Obliterate buffs and nerfs using Gamepedia just like with Frost Strike. Your argument is that Frost strike had to be constantly buffed because I will assume its the same as Dreadmoore which is because DW was behind 2h.
So lets take a look at obliterate nerfs. Cata had a nerf from 160% weapon damage to 150%.
Now lets look at the buffs. Mists 150% weapon damage to 230% weapon damage. Then again from 230% weapon daamge to 250% weapon damage.
WoD 30% damage increase. 25% damage increase on both main and off-hand weapons, but no longer deals additional damage for each disease present on the target. Damage increased by 20% but deals only 80% of normal damage against player controlled targets. Damage has been increased by 10% with some hotfixes.
Legion, No longer has a chance to cause your next Howling Blast or Icy Touch to consume no runes, increased by 170%. Damage increased by 20%, and a hotfix which increased obliterates damage another 19%.
So if Frost Strike was buffed because DW was “behind” what is with all of these Obliterate buffs? From the arguments put out there, the only logical conclusion should be… 2h was behind DW.
Or just maybe you guys are wrong about the Frost Strike buffs, and it was just general across the board buffs for both Obliterate and Frost Strike because Frost as a spec was behind other classes and specs. Which one is more likely? Logs do show that Frost was behind, on some fights being almost 50% lower that other specs on certain fights which I would probably say those other specs were better for aoe situations.
So did I just completely destroy the entire “why was Frost Strike being buffed so much if DW was ahead” argument? Its just shows how 2h supporters will find anything and throw it out of proportions to suit their confirmation bias.
Oh, forgot to say there was one other nerf in Legion for Obliterate, a 10% nerf against other players.
2h coming back wouldnt magically make the spec better. It will still be the same thing with fewer KM procs, no Razorice, Obliterate damage would still be low because its based on attack power now, less auto attacks. Basically, you are taking the spec that you dont like right now, and making it just worse unless you start adding and changing things, unless people dont care that its just worse and just want to use it because they like the looks of it. But in that case just allow transmog from DW to 2h and call it a day.
Other classes’ ability to avoid an attack is not a nerf. That’s equalizing, because they should have been able to in the first place.
I was specifically referring to FS’s damage buffs.
Creationist fallacy. Explanation: Making a presumptuous conclusion based on what satisfies the individual’s personal beliefs as opposed to making a deductive conclusion of a situation or event that is supported by evidence that points directly to it. Source: Trumpknight’s head
Screaming externally
Link?
Adding this to the newly created bin: “Proof that Kelliste is Monkiy”
Mmmm nope. Frost Strike got far more buffs than Obliterate did.
Having said this exact thing I don’t know how many times, I have to assume you are just skimming through posts and not reading them word for word. I just said not a day or two ago that the entire spec needs to be deleted and replaced, and gave a detailed explanation as to why the spec is mechanically illogical, followed by an analogical phrase to help understand why it is illogical.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
3 Likes
Frost Strike is a a level 55 Frost death knight that deals Frost damage.
Patches and hotfixes
Hotfix (2016-09-23): "Frost Strike damage increased by 12%."
Legion Patch 7.0.3 (2016-07-19): Now deals 500% of weapon damage, up from 88%.
Hotfix (2016-03-03): "Now deals 10% less damage against another player."
Warlords of Draenor Patch 6.2.3 (2015-11-17): Damage has been increased by 10%.
Warlords of Draenor Patch 6.2.0 (2015-06-23): Now deals 20% more damage.
Warlords of Draenor Patch 6.0.2 (2014-10-14):
Now replaces [Death Coil] for Frost death knights.
Damage has been increased by 100%, but its Runic Power cost has been increased by 5 (up to 25 Runic Power in Frost Presence, and 40 Runic Power in other Presences).
Mists of Pandaria Patch 5.4.0 (2013-09-10): Now deals 115% weapons damage (up from 105% weapon damage).
Mists of Pandaria Patch 5.0.4 (2012-08-28): Now replaces Blood Strike. Weapon damage reduced from 130% to 105%, and bonus damage removed. Runic Power cost reduced from 40 to 35.
Cataclysm Patch 4.1.0 (2011-04-26): Now deals 130% of weapon damage, up from 110%.
Cataclysm Patch 4.0.1 (2010-10-12): Changed to a Frost Specialization.
Wrath of the Lich King Patch 3.2.0 (2009-08-04): This ability can now be dodged, parried, or blocked. Weapon damage bonus reduced to 55%, down from 60%.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Frost_Strike
4 Likes
Just go to gamepedia and look it up. And somehow I knew that you were going to disregard all of what I said based on absolutely nothing because it doesn’t align with your ideals.
Guess what, there was also a buff between expansions to frost strike though these aren’t listed as changes. If the ability is doing over 100% weapon damage one expansion, and then less in a new expansion, or more, how does that not equal to a buff or nerf? It’s not some creationist fallacy, its information left out or do you have some better explanation of why it was doing over 100% weapon damage and then the next expansion doing 88%?
I’m seeing a lot of nerfs lol more than obliterate. How about you list those changes as well or do you not want people to see the 1 nerf and the rest being buffs?
This is quite literally, verbatim, word for word, the Creationist Fallacy. If you came to the conclusion that information was left out and knew that as a fact, then you wouldn’t need to ask me for an explanation.
Variables: Item level changes, stat crunches, scaling changes, mechanical weapon changes
Were all of these concepts ruled out?
3 Likes
Obliterate was nerfed and buffed a ton because Two Handers Obliterated players, and they needed it to be just right. Most of the changes that happened to Obliterate started in WoD, which was the first expansion that Blizzard tried (and failed) to shoehorn us into dual wielding.
Patches and hotfixes
Legion Patch 7.1.0 (2016-10-25): Damage increased by 20%.
Hotfix (2016-09-23): "Obliterate damage increased by 19%."
Legion Patch 7.0.3 (2016-07-19): No longer has a chance to cause your next [Howling Blast] or [Icy Touch] to consume no runes. Damage increased by 170% (35% for each weapon).
Hotfix (2016-03-03): "Now deals 10% less damage against another player."
Warlords of Draenor Patch 6.2.3 (2015-11-17): Damage has been increased by 10%.
Hotfix (2015-06-29): "Obliterate should now correctly deal full damage against other players in PvP combat."
Hotfix (2015-06-25): "
Frost Strike and Obliterate have been reduced to their pre-6.2 damage levels.
Obliterate once again deals full damage to players."
Warlords of Draenor Patch 6.2.0 (2015-06-23): Damage has increased by 20%, but deals only 80% of normal damage against player-controlled targets.
Warlords of Draenor Patch 6.0.2 (2014-10-14):
Now deals 25% more damage on both main and off-hand weapons, but no longer deals additional damage for each disease present on the target.
Damage has been increased by 30%.
Mists of Pandaria Patch 5.4.0 (2013-09-10): Now deals 250% weapon damage (up from 230% weapon damage).
Mists of Pandaria Patch 5.0.4 (2012-08-28): Now a Frost specialization ability. Weapon damage increased from 150% to 230%. Bonus damage removed.
Cataclysm Patch 4.2.0 (2011-06-28): Base damage has been reduced to 150% weapon damage, down from 160%.
Cataclysm Patch 4.0.3a (2010-11-23): No longer consumes diseases.
Wrath of the Lich King Patch 3.0.2 (2008-10-14): Added.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Obliterate
Meanwhile, Frost Strike was just repeatedly buffed ad nauseum because dual wield-only death knight under performed.
5 Likes
Yes they were all ruled out. Let’s say obliterate does 100% weapon damage, you get a new higher ilvl weapon… what do you think happens? Does the ability now do 110% weapon damage? No it still does 100% weapon damage. You even suggesting that is spreading misinformation.
And I just asked what your explanation is on it. Why would something do less weapon damage, or more, between expansions if there isn’t a nerf or buff to that ability? The “variables” that you suggested do not change if it does 100% weapon damage or 200% weapon damage, that is done in the coding.
I think you are getting your abilities mixed up. It’s not like people can’t read what you are posting.
Obliterate had one nerf in Cata and that was it, according to what is important to Trumpknight.
MoP seen all buffs to the ability as did WoD and Legion. It’s right on the gamepedia page that anyone can go and look at.
Wait, is two considered “a lot”?
I count two nerfs for Frost Strike, and one for Obliterate.
I honestly don’t get the argument over nerfs and buffs, I think I missed the start of it.
3 Likes
MoP was the most balanced all of the classes (except shaman) have ever been. Ever. You could fight any class and have a reasonable expectation of killing them as long as you understood your class, and understood theirs. The changes during MoP lasted… hell, I don’t remember, a year and a half? Of excellent PVP.
2 Likes
If you just count where it says there is a damage nerf then yes. But there are more information in that list. There are changes between expansions that aren’t listed as a nerf or buff but if you follow the information there are nerfs and buffs, an ability that can’t be dodged parried or blocked now able to be dodged parried or blocked is also a nerf since you won’t be hitting with the ability as much, right?
Obliterate had one nerf with the rest being buffs though, right? So the other 2 people saying it was nerfed are lying. This is what people like me have been dealing with, they keep saying stuff is factually true but the information that is actually out there goes against what they are saying.
What does your post have to do with obliterate being buffed during those expansions?
First nerf.
This ability can now be dodged, parried, or blocked. Weapon damage bonus reduced to 55%, down from 60%.
Second nerf.
Now replaces Blood Strike. Weapon damage reduced from 130% to 105%, and bonus damage removed. Runic Power cost reduced from 40 to 35.
The only thing that could possibly be counted as a third was this hotfix.
Now deals 10% less damage against another player.
Which was a few months after
Damage has been increased by 10%.
So I’m more inclined to believe that was a buff intended for PvE, and they did not realize it would affect PvP so they “nerfed” it after a bit. Though I guess technically that would count as a third.
I have no idea what you’re on about as far as there being “more information in that list”. If you have something that for some reason isn’t included in the list, link it.
I should add, if we’re including the hotfix as a nerf, then Obliterate was nerfed twice as well.
EDIT: Thrice actually.
2 Likes
The buff was necessary to achieve the most balanced class equilibrium ever in MoP.
The Lion’s Share of Obliterate’s buffs, however, came from the era of trying to (and then later literally) enforce(ing) dual wield and how Obliterate worked with fast swing speed mechanics.
I’ve said it time and again: Obliterate hits harder the slower your weapon is. Of course they have to buff it when you’re swinging lightning fast baby swords.
3 Likes
I thought that obliterate was nerfed all the time because 2h was so much better than 2h, or are you lying to people?
