It's ridiculous how paranoid you people are

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Surti-shandris

These are the level of name calling and I tolerated the first insult and pushed back on the second mildly with the mom comment

None of those are name calling. You did attack Mirasol, though because you didn’t like what Mirasol was saying.

@Surti-shandris

Calm down, the Squelching point is a good point and I agreed with it. Just take the compliment instead of getting emotional.

Oh, here we go

@Surti-shandris

You are missing the real life point where people are coming from

Because it doesn’t matter. All this “freak out” should’ve happened back with the Squelch, but nobody kept up with it. That’s why I don’t take any of this seriously because IK it’s just a trend and a fad, that people will get over. Just like they did with the Squelch.

So, right back at ya. Calm down, quit getting emotional over stuff that hasn’t changed.

@Surti-shandris

There are significant differences like compelled speech

We never had the right to say what we wanted, in the first place. This is nothing new. It’s reiterated rules that were in the ToS. You’re acting like this is “new”, when it’s not. Which is where the Squelch comes into play, to further push “censorship”.

@Surti-shandris

the vague hate speech section, which is why I want to know what that means in the Forums

There will never be one.

@Surti-shandris

What are the enforcement methods?

Well, I’ve been actioned, here, as well (and not just in the game). They’ve been much more lenient on their enforcement methods by simply just removing the offensive post, in question while still having the poster keep their posting rights.

@Surti-shandris

What is considered hate speech? Just want to know specifics here.

We will never know because it’s all subjective and a distraction.

@Surti-shandris

Didn’t think that was a big ask or that sharing where people’s concerns were coming from would be considered “fearmongering” or “spreading misinformation”.

'Cause you’re (specifically and others like you) acting like this is “new”, when it’s not.

You’ll never get an answer because it doesn’t matter, and it’s all a distraction, anyway. You’ve never had to worry about being Squelched. I’ve been Squelched, Suspended, removed posts, etc. And, I’m still, here.

There’s nothing “new” about Blizz’s reminder of vague terms that never get defined because it doesn’t matter. We’ve had abusive systems put into place, and they’ve never gone away, and I doubt they ever will.

[Zothlar-argent-dawn (Zothlar)]

@Surti-shandris

There are significant differences like compelled speech

Please provide an example of compelled speech in the Social Contract.

@Surti-shandris

What are the enforcement methods? What is considered hate speech? Just want to know specifics here.

The exact same as what is in the EULA. Why do you suddenly need the specifics just because it’s been repackaged?

[Hepburn-gorgonnash]

@Zothlar-argent-dawn

The exact same as what is in the EULA. Why do you suddenly need the specifics just because it’s been repackaged?

Because it was repackaged as a “contract”. Meaning it has the weight of Law to enforce it. It is like telling someone you are willing to take them to court over it.

Important when a lot of money is involved, so for Blizzard it makes sense. But as a customer playing a game

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Hepburn-gorgonnash

Because it was repackaged as a “contract”. Meaning it has the weight of Law to enforce it.

https://www.contractscounsel.com/t/us/terms-of-service

Are Terms of Services a Contract?

Terms of service are terms that a user must accept before using or purchasing a site’s service, whether that is:

• Purchase of goods
• Access to an application
• Access to membership or registration-based site

When the user accepts the term by either checking a box, hitting a button or digitally signing, the ToS becomes a legally binding contract.

If you update your terms, you must notify customers, users, or consumers. They have no way of knowing if your ToS have been updated on their own, so they cannot agree to the new terms.

It is recommended that you do not include clauses that allow you to change the terms without prior notice. Otherwise, users are accountable to all future contacts that do not even exist yet. Including this clause may make your ToS unenforceable.

[Svelte-maelstrom]

You know you click “I agree” on a EULA to pretty much any online game you play, right? Including this one, for the last 15+ years?

What is the purpose of an End User License Agreement (EULA)?

Acting as a contract between the software developer or publisher and the end-user, an end user license agreement grants the user a license to use the app and covers a series of important clauses that limit your own obligations as the vendor.

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

I’ve never been sued by Blizz, the times I’ve been Squelched and/or Suspended.

[Svelte-maelstrom]

No me neither, and I have had not one but two “accidents” total in my decade-and-a-half of play lol.

P.S. I’m out of hearts to give but I’m all at you on this.

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Svelte-maelstrom

P.S. I’m out of hearts to give but I’m all at you on this.

All good, I ran out, yesterday, so I gave a full day to regenerate some more, so have one of my mine

[Idun-wyrmrest-accord (Idun)]

@Mirasol-mannoroth

@Murdercarpet-zuljin

We have no way of knowing if anyone has ever reached those limits, or even specifically what they might be.

Oh they have. It is really really rare though. It has to cross into what Blizz calls Zone Disruption where it impacts a large number of players for days or weeks at a time.

I can think of two examples, one personally experienced, one I read about elsewhere.

The latter happened during MoP, I think the Throne of Thunder patch opening. A multi-raid group of Alliance kept Horde from leaving the GY and doing the new content. Eventually a GM told them to back off or be kicked from the game.

The personal experience happened on Ravenholdt, back in Wrath. Two or three Alliance rogues snuck into Silvermoon and spent at least a week killing the auctioneers. They didn’t attack players; they didn’t go after other NPCs. They literally only killed the auctioneers. We found out they were given temporary suspensions when one of them complained about it ingame.

ISTR someone years ago complaining about a former SO following them around and camping them which led to some kind of action, but I think that would fall under harassment.

[Jalen-emerald-dream (Jalën)]

Are people still squirming over the contract? Is it strange that Blizz did it? I’d say yeah, but the freakout over it is completely unwarranted.

[Surti-shandris]

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

None of those are name calling. You did attack Mirasol, though because you didn’t like what Mirasol was saying.

They were derogatory in a “you people are the problem” sense and talking down to me as if I am lesser than you not knowing how the world works, it was insulting. Again, tolerated and “thanks mom” was a mild response to an insult. Mirasol took a case about people’s real-life environment and translated it to “politeness” which is not equivalent in the least and discounts people’s concerns. It was at best a failure to steelman people’s concerns at worst manipulative strawman.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

So, right back at ya. Calm down, quit getting emotional over stuff that hasn’t changed.

Again, I don’t care, it’s just a game, can take it or leave it.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

Oh, here we go

Mature

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

We will never know because it’s all subjective and a distraction.

That’s important. Subjective standards in legal documents are open to interpretation and abuse. Yes, yes squelching you made your point and I agree. Can you see where that would be problematic?

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Surti-shandris

They were derogatory in a “you people are the problem” sense and talking down to me as if I am lesser than you not knowing how the world works, it was insulting. Again, tolerated and “thanks mom” was a mild response to an insult. Mirasol took a case about people’s real-life environment and translated it to “politeness” which is not equivalent in the least and discounts people’s concerns. It was at best a failure to steelman people’s concerns at worst manipulative strawman

Well, I have no reason to respect you, after the way you treated Mirasol because we’re both trying to clear the air. Unlike Mirasol, I have nothing to lose other than my posting rights. Don’t expect respect from others, when you don’t do it, yourself. You were insulting, from the beginning and lumped EVERY CC member as one in the same, when they’re not.

@Surti-shandris

Again, I don’t care, it’s just a game, can take it or leave it

Then, you wouldn’t be posting here, in the first place, if you didn’t care. The fact that you are, means you care.

@Surti-shandris

Mature

Only responding in accordance to what you’re saying.

@Surti-shandris

That’s important. Subjective standards in legal documents are open to interpretation and abuse

Yes, welcome to the system! It’s been happening, dunno what you expect to change 'cause it hasn’t.

@Surti-shandris

Yes, yes squelching you made your point and I agree

And, it hasn’t gone, anywhere, has it?

@Surti-shandris

Can you see where that would be problematic?

I can see where the Squelching is problematic, yes. I’ve been calling it problematic. If you’re talking about the “Contract”, no, I don’t see how this “Contract” (that’s the same as the ToS & EULA which are BOTH also CONTRACTS) is “problematic”. As long as Blizz continues to have their already put in place systems like the Squelch & VTK, this “Contract” changes diddly squat.

[Surti-shandris]

@Zothlar-argent-dawn

Please provide an example of compelled speech in the Social Contract.

The first four points of the contract to do your best (whatever that means in a contract) to help new players, communicate, make friends, etc. Not a one I am concerned about because I can’t see how they would enforce it, but I can see where people would get nervous. Minus the third point which is about teamplay.

@Zothlar-argent-dawn

The exact same as what is in the EULA. Why do you suddenly need the specifics just because it’s been repackaged?

The contract adds hate speech which is too vague of a term. Again, I came to see if I can get specifics on what falls under that category and what the enforcement would be to see if this is reasonable. If the enforcement is the same as the ToS and EULA then I wish it would be clarified in the contract.

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Surti-shandris

The first four points of the contract to do your best (whatever that means in a contract) to help new players, communicate, make friends, etc. Not a one I am concerned about because I can’t see how they would enforce it, but I can see where people would get nervous. Minus the third point which is about teamplay

Nothing to be nervous about because below it reads what you can actually be reported for and only applies to those bullet points.

The top layer is like reading tips, on your loading screen. They’re not enforced rules. Only the ones that are actually reportable.

EDIT: If somebody seriously reports me for “not being their friend”, I bet everything I have Blizz will laugh it and toss out that ticket.

[Surti-shandris]

I care in as much as about the contract to look into the parameters of it and decide whether it is a dealbreaker or not.

Where I cared more and why I jumped into the conversation was when Mirasol presented Koji’s concerns in a disingenuous light all of which were clarified above. She’s a moderator who is supposed to remain impartial if they are representing Blizzard’s community standards.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

Well, I have no reason to respect you, after the way you treated Mirasol because we’re both trying to clear the air.

Respect is a two-way street. Not very compelled on my end due to insults against me in every message, disregarding good faith efforts like supporting a good idea of yours, and dismissing, failing to understand, and misrepresenting my positions. I don’t hate you or even dislike you, we might get along under different circumstances but right now I think there is too much emotional reasoning for productive conversation. Wish you the best.

[Surti-shandris]

That’s what I figure too. Just searching around for solid official clarification. Thanks.

[Thundertotem-blackwater-raiders (Thundertotem)]

@Surti-shandris

She’s a moderator

Mirasol has no moderation authority. Mirasol is a CC and MVP. She, in no way, has to impartial.

[Surti-shandris]

What is the role of a CC?

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Surti-shandris

Where I cared more and why I jumped into the conversation was when Mirasol presented Koji’s concerns in a disingenuous light all of which were clarified above

According to YOU, and I jumped in with my own subjective view point. The only one I find to be “disingenuous” would be you (specifically).

'Cause you have no idea what’s really going on. You didn’t know about the Squelch and now, you’re calling Mirasol a:

@Surti-shandris

She’s a moderator who is supposed to remain impartial if they are representing Blizzard’s community standards.

She’s NOT a moderator, at all.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. She’s just a CC member with no power to remove nor delete any of our posts. Only blue texts have that power.

@Surti-shandris

Respect is a two-way street. Not very compelled on my end due to insults against me in every message, disregarding good faith efforts like supporting a good idea of yours, and dismissing, failing to understand, and misrepresenting my positions. I don’t hate you or even dislike you, we might get along under different circumstances but right now I think there is too much emotional reasoning for productive conversation

The only one I find to be “emotional” is YOU (specifically). You have NO idea what you’re talking about, and both Mirasol and I are trying to give you the facts, but you refuse to listen.

@Surti-shandris

Wish you the best.

Same to you.

@Surti-shandris

That’s what I figure too. Just searching around for solid official clarification

As one who has been Squelched and/or Suspended, this “Contract” doesn’t worry me. But, I’m just a “member”.

@Surti-shandris

Thanks

You’re welcome.

@Surti-shandris

What is the role of a CC

Hand selected members that Blizz mods talk to more, to avoid us more “toxic” members. It means nothing, really.

EDIT: They get access to an exclusive forum, which we all can read -

WoW Community Council

[Zothlar-argent-dawn (Zothlar)]

@Surti-shandris

The first four points of the contract to do your best (whatever that means in a contract) to help new players, communicate, make friends, etc.

And if your best is to not do any of those then that’s fine. Nothing in the phrase “do your best” should be construed as “do this or else”, and frankly, I can’t understand how so many people can’t seem to differentiate between them.

@Surti-shandris

The contract adds hate speech which is too vague of a term.

The contract adds nothing. Hate speech is part of the Code of Conduct, which is specifically included in the EULA.

Also, hate speech isn’t a vague term. It has a very specific and limited meaning. Don’t listen to the people who tell you anything can be hate speech. It just isn’t true.