It's good to see Ion believes M+ loot is too good

[Humanitydh-illidan]

All you people complaining about normal and heroic raids and m 15s need to just get good.

Go watch an guide or something it would fix all your problems instead of asking for loot to be nerfed.

So fn cringe

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

The ilvls of M+ should not surpass or even match Heroic Raids. I got tired of the M+ gimmick in Legion - and Blizzard has made it more and more important ever since.

They can scale M+ gear back. They inched it forward in the first place - they can go back.

Or make separate sets of gear. Like PvP gear. Maybe that can be the reward for M+ Players, more “M+ Power” on their gear instead of ilvl.

I am not looking for the experience of M+ to be changed - I just do not like the M+ rewards being so bloated and overboard, that they make Heroic Raiding futile for gearing.

[Caelin-boulderfist (Caelin)]

@Terranox-stonemaul

Can’t yall just raid because you want to raid?

Well can’t yall just mythic+ because you want to mythic+?

That said, I don’t think mythic+ loot needs to be nerfed. They need to improve the raid loot system is all.

[Allolria-khazgoroth]

@Shamdrax-barthilas

But they still completed the Dungeon, hence they get a (single) loot drop and vault reward.

It’s no different to Heroic guilds smashing their faces for hours on the first few Mythic bosses. If you kill it, you get the drops and a vault, if you don’t, you get nothing.

Firstly, they get INFLATED ilvl loot for failing to time a M+ key. If you kill a boss in a raid, you only get gv loot that is the same ilvl. You dont kill heroic anduin and get mythic anduin loot in the gv.

Secondly, if you don’t kill a raid boss you get nothing. There’s no participation trophy like you get if you fail the timer in a M+.

@Shamdrax-barthilas

And you’re failing the timer by more than 10 minutes, you aren’t getting any score and won’t be getting into other players keys either.

You still get mythic raid gear from the vault. You can take 4 hours to fail your way through a m+ - as long as you mange to complete the dungeon eventually you get a choice of mythic ilvl loot from the GV.

Not good enough for a mythic raid? Too bad, you don’t even get same ilvl loot. you get NOTHING.

[Våld-area-52]

@Kregethan-suramar

As a former raider (casual now, only sub when I get wow itch) the super simple solution to me is to just give raid gear additional stats within raid (lets say 10% or so). This keeps the best raiding gear in raids (aside from possibly trinkets or other items with effects) without negatively impacting m+ers.

No it does impact others because a ton of people do both raid and M+. You’ll never see anyone agree to adding a whole other set of gear on top of an already demanding gear grind. No way.

[Forumcow-barthilas]

The only people it’s going to effect is the lower key runners or people hard stuck in raids, People like me who push keys for fun are going to meet any requirement they add anyway.

It’s the lower key runners, or the weekly vault people who struggle to get gear if they change it

[Våld-area-52]

@Forumcow-barthilas

It’s the lower key runners, or the weekly vault people who struggle to get gear if they change it

Absolutely. If they do what he’s suggesting, the less talented/practiced players are going to start complaining about an even bigger gear gap.

[Bloodypaws-frostmourne]

@Allolria-khazgoroth

So now the important question is, how are you going to nerf it so that Normal and AOTC guilds stop being invalidated by the easy, spammable, repeatability of M+ loot?

I’d rather they get a new director who isn’t an elitist fool, who thinks limiting our loot even more is a good idea.

[Kansaraika-illidan]

it wouldn’t be an additional set, it would just be better in raids and have same budgeting as m+ gear equivalents everywhere else outside of raids. You wouldn’t need an entirely separate set of armor for raid and then one for dungeons, even though people already do swap pieces for things like that. I’m not suggesting separating m+ and raid items completely, like pvp and raiding were before (pvp power or w/e it was called), I’m suggesting the raid gear be better in raids to incentivize raiders, and m+ gear to stay how it is now (standard I guess?). The m+ gear wouldnt become lower or less valued for m+, it just wouldnt be as strong for raiding

[Undraxis-arygos (Undraxis)]

My take with loot in the game. Make all loot the same in any content in any playstyle, same ilevel limit progression. But to make them appropriate for each style, give them set bonuses appropriately. Raid gear has set bonuses which benefit the raid, Solo set bonuses emphasize survival and resource gathering in overworld content, Mythic emphasize speed in completing mythic runs and PVP is all about staying alive at all costs. I think something like that would revitalize loot in the game.

[Våld-area-52]

@Kansaraika-illidan

it wouldn’t be an additional set, it would just be better in raids and have same budgeting as m+ gear equivalents everywhere else outside of raids. You wouldn’t need an entirely separate set of armor for raid and then one for dungeons, even though people already do swap pieces for things like that.

So if 1/2 of my gear is from M+ I’ll still have to go and get raid gear for the other half to compete in raid. It’s extra gear one way or the other and bad design.

[Kansaraika-illidan]

It wouldn’t be “extra” though? It would make m+ gear transitional for raiders. Admittedly it is just an idea I came up early in the morning and I’m no system designer, but im still not seeing how replacing an item makes something extra gear.

[Anxxy-area-52]

im all for loot changes as long as we’re not removing gear for some reason, and just buffing other means of gearing

[Reynahrd-area-52]

Nerfing M+ loot would be a really bad move. M+ is the most popular end game activity. A lot of players focus on M+ because they’re unable to commit to the part time job that is raiding. Reducing M+ loot to heroic gear level or lower would result in a massive sub loss.

[Anxxy-area-52]

yeah, i mean m+ just makes the most sense for average gamers. you can have an hour or two of gameplay available, can just queue up and bang two dungeons out.

[Kansaraika-illidan]

I agree 100%, it makes more sense to buff Heroic to the same level imo. Where does that leave Mythic though, end boss ilvl? sounds fine to me.

[Bakmei-dalaran]

Make M+ not drop gear, scale everyone’s ilvl to the same thing so that the scaling on keys can be finely tuned, jam pack it full of mounts, cosmetics, etc. Push all the esports wankery you want with your newly fixed M+. Return end game gearing and raiding to its former glory.

End game gearing is an absolute clown fiesta right now. It’s so bad even Ion is openly admitting there’s a problem. M+ is way too spammable and way to fast of an avenue for gearing when you factor in the relative difficulty and group organization required.

The fact that I can click a couple buttons, join a group with 4 random strangers, literally FAIL the content, if nothing drops I can just immediately try again, and get a piece of gear equivalent to something that drops from a mythic raid boss, is utter insanity, and defending it is likewise insane.

[Sentenzà-illidan]

Blizzard is likely to implement the +13 ilvl in M+ system they implemented for PvP gear if I had to guess, since that’s “tried and try” and the lowest effort route.

Ion says he wants M+ers to get BIS weapons from M+ but he also wants normal/heroic raiders to not feel invalidated, and this is the same scenario they had with PvP and the +13 ilvl thing is what they came up with before.

[Allolria-khazgoroth]

@Reynahrd-area-52

M+ is the most popular end game activity

Of course it’s popular. It gives mythic raid ilvl loot for failure.

If you put a mythic raid gear vendor in oribos that gave away free loot every time you /danced with him it would become the most popular end game activity overnight.

Doesn’t mean it’s good for the game.

[Forumcow-barthilas]

@Våld-area-52

@Forumcow-barthilas

It’s the lower key runners, or the weekly vault people who struggle to get gear if they change it

Absolutely. If they do what he’s suggesting, the less talented/practiced players are going to start complaining about an even bigger gear gap

It’s just the usual raiding rabble trying to gatekeep ilvl like it’s theirs and anyone who doesn’t raid doesn’t deserve high item level.

While I think 15s are too easy for 304ilvl, the only people it disadvantage by changing it is the more casual key runners and raiders who don’t mind M+

It’s 2022, who even raids anymore. M+ is king.