Most guilds raid with the same people though. Effectively making trade looting much more probable after a certain amount of time with repeat pieces. While dungeons are mostly a pug thing, trading upgrades isnt as guarenteed unless you only do it with friends. Raiding tends to have more people, with same armor classes/weapons/trinkets as you. Mythic plus you have to armor stack for something like that.
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Personal loot says hi.
why are we ever having a conversation about removing loot having it be a positive thing, just think about it lol it sounds legit insane. just buff other means of loot. weâre past this.
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As long as you have a piece of equal or higher ilvl you can trade it. Which is similar to what world first raiders did for SoD. Gear funneling. Blame them blizzard tuned for them imo trying to slow them down.
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I mean⊠thereâs always a mad dash to gear as quickly as possible at the start of the season. A lot of peopleâs best gear still comes out of raids though.
There are seriously powerful items that are only accessible through raiding, such as the jailerâs hammer.
I personally like having a wider pool of loot to pull from because sometimes the itemization in raid is awful.
Iâd be okay with them seperating the two as weâve discussed though⊠if that is what it takes to make more folks happy.
Making gearing slower doesnât sound fun though. The nerfs to raid loot at the start of SL already proved that it isnât fun.
Different people enjoy different things, but I think itâs safe to say that generally, thatâs what raiding has been through WOWâs history. Certainly through WOWâs most sucessfull times.
If you are in a raiding guild, each tier is progression then farm for bis.
Which is something else that has been ruined by externals like PI.
No point trading loot thatâs a downgrade over M+ loot they already have. Which is exactly what keeps happening.
You donât necessarily have to remove it, but the ilvl is too high for how trivial the content is.
Nah.
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And seriously powerful items that are only accessible through Mythic+.
Hakkar tanking trinket? IQD? Changeling? Poxstorm? the list goes on and on
(Not to mention the really stupid ones that only come from Legion Timewalking M+âŠ)
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Which I alluded to in the second half of that sentence⊠lol
This we can somewhat agree on but you can just ignore parses with PI if you arenât getting it.
Has warcraftlogs decided how they are handling that going forward yet? I ought to check.
Elaborate. Some items from raid are head and shoulders above anything you can get out of keys.
The jailer hammer is a good example of that.
Which is how it should be. Both should have powerful drops.
But maybe they should only work in their respective content or scale differently, as you suggested.
Personally I donât see a problem with how it is now. It just sounds like folks want to raid log but I am trying to figure out a middle ground of some kind. lol
People want to play for the 6, or 9, or 10 hours a week that they played for years.
Instead of now having to play 15 or 20 hours a week because reasons, to do the same activity.
I can only really speak from warlock pov, but at the end of last season i wasnât wearing a single item from the raid. Really the only thing I could have used was Antumbra, but it never dropped and even then i had a mythic ilvl item from M+.
Sure there might be a couple individually bis items only from the raid(on mythic) - but usually the lower ilvl normal/heroic version is trumped by the mythic ilvl item you can get from M+.
Remember, weâre talking about how Ion acknowledged M+ invalidates normal/heroic raiding.
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Fair enough. That is what I have really always liked about mythic + though. It gives you alternative sources of loot when the raid itemization is bad for your spec.
There have been some pretty powerful items from raids over the last couple of tiers too though.
It should at a high enough level.
The main issue may just be that the higher ilvl loot is available at too low a key level or that they have over-nerfed the dungeons.
Just amp the difficulty a bit and call it a day.
I get that. They have already moved in the right direction on that front with the last couple of patches.
9.1 was the worst WoW has been for raiders that I can remember. Having to do all of the world content and what-not was pretty awful.
That being said, nerfing m+ isnât the way to improve raiding. They ought to instead buff raid gearing.
Heck, just add a vendor that you can buy things from or buff the amount of drops folks get. I donât think many would complain about more loot.
Less loot, however, has already been proven to bug people.
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The easy rebuttal (not that Iâm saying itâs my point of view) would be âcanât yâall M+ because you want to?â
There was plenty of loot in the raid that would have been fine. The problem is I was already decked out in higher ilvl loot from M+ before they dropped. I got that loot from doing mostly 18âs - 19âs but I would have got exactly the same loot from failing to time 14âs and 15âs - which is the problem.
Iâve said for years now that folks ought not get gear from keys for failing themâit shouldnât count for their vaults either.
Folks have not really liked that too much when I have suggested it in the past thoughâŠ
Itâs a problem when you think that other people should be able to progress in content that is getting harder but without getting gear. Itâs kind of like saying that raids at higher levels of difficulty should be tuned to be harder but not drop loot except for cosmetics. That way it would only be about showing off your mad skillz.
No I think you missed the point of what he was saying.
He wants to tune M+ loot down in some ways and BUFF IT in others.
I suspect they scale dungeons faster than they did prior so the players who see AOTC as the pinnacle can barely do a 15, which is perfectly fine.
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But they still completed the Dungeon, hence they get a (single) loot drop and vault reward.
Itâs no different to Heroic guilds smashing their faces for hours on the first few Mythic bosses. If you kill it, you get the drops and a vault, if you donât, you get nothing.
While beating the timer increases the number of drops, itâs primary function is to level the key. If you keep failing and de-leveling your key, you wonât be running 15âs for the best loot. And youâre failing the timer by more than 10 minutes, you arenât getting any score and wonât be getting into other players keys either.
See i want people to pvp because they want to pvp
But blizz keeps making it about gear and forum people fight me over it
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As a former raider (casual now, only sub when I get wow itch) the super simple solution to me is to just give raid gear additional stats within raid (lets say 10% or so). This keeps the best raiding gear in raids (aside from possibly trinkets or other items with effects) without negatively impacting m+ers.
The truth and fact of the matter is early raid tier is significantly more efficient to do m+ than it is to raid for gear, you have a 2/5 chance every dungeon to get loot compared to learning/progressing a boss for a 1/5 chance at loot. M+ also is something you can do much easier, on a whim most people do +15s, where ,while not âdifficultâ, doing a Heroic raid definitely takes more time to coordinate and to complete, and while it awards slightly higher ilvl rewards (3 for everything but end bosses which is what? maybe 1 stat) , awards afaik lower vault items. I havenât raided much at all in SL, but everything I saw said vault reward would be heroic ilvl rewards. Regardless, m+ has a much lower barrier to entry and is currently a much better source for gear overall, so it would feel almost necessary to most raiders currently, whereas aside from specific items, m+ players can just do their own thing it seems. At the very least the Heroic vault should be equal to the m+ vault, if it isnât already, whether that means increasing the Heroic/Mythic vault, mythic because it would be weird for them to have the same reward, or even better making a higher cap than 15 for the vault that justifies the m+ vault be equal to Mythic raid (20?25? in this current season anyways).
Side note people that say âplay x because you like xâ are super unhelpful and the gear 100% matters. People play certain content because they like it, thatâs the whole reason people complain about things like this, because they have to play content they donât like
to optimally play the content they DO like.
^ posted on wrong character, this is me 