How does a group of 12 raiders progress in a mythic raid exactly?
What a load of trash, trying to pretend that failing your way through a M+ for mythic raid loot is somehow less lenient than any raid mode.
Just making stuff up now… Still managed to time plenty of keys when a DPS has disconnected.
More rubbish - I completed a 15 spires a few weeks ago where someone just left right as we were pulling the 3 mobs on the last boss. Still managed to 1 chest it. So your lies are just that… lies.
It’s kinda cute to see you making stuff up to try and convince yourself M+ is somehow harder and less forgiving than raiding, but in the end it’s just all make believe.
Fully agree. Like I mentioned above, I’m trying to move towards a neutral stance rather than my biased one focused on raiding. Blizzard has a reward problem, and I think Domination Sockets are a great example of that. Who in their right mind looked at that system and thought “Yep, the players are going to love this”? If that’s what they think good rewards are, they’re too far to help.
I think right now the friction is M+ is presenting a more modern version of gearing -i.e. quicker content, faster rewards, able to run continuously during a week - against the old way of gearing - weekly lockouts, epic large raids with tiny loot drops, struggling for months to get a single piece of loot - and people like me want the new version of gearing while doing content more similar to the old style of gearing, if that makes sense.
Back in the day, it did sort of feel good to spend months after months going after that one piece of loot, and at one point there might have been that satisfaction of finally getting it. But those days are long in the past now. To be honest, the raids burn me out because of how difficult but also how cruel the bosses have become if one person in the raid makes a mistake, and all of that only to never get any loot feels like a kick to the teeth. M+ burns me out because I don’t like rerunning the same dungeons for two years.
DF is starting well addressing the M+ problem I have. Each season having different dungeons sounds interesting, and so long as they never again introduce an affix like Prideful ever again I’ll be more receptive to running M+ more. But there doesn’t seem to be any real intended fix to raiding, which still feels bad. They’re experimenting now and the Dinar system is good, but it sounded like in the interview he thinks it’s too good even having to kill 30 bosses for the first piece. I’m worried he’s going to make Dinars basically bonus rolls and we use them to buy a chest with a random loot Proc, because Ion is the God of RNG and doesn’t think any other reward structure is good (his excuse for removing PvP vendors will never fail to make me laugh).
The fact he has acknowledged downsides to Normal and Heroic gives me hope, and I know how foolish it is to have hope that Blizzard will do something fun, but I’m a fool so I am hopeful.
I’m not referring to someone disconnecting near the end or on the last boss. Show me a log of where you did a Lower Karazhan +15 with 2 DPS from the outset, I’ll wait.
Yeah, back in BFA i was running 20ish range with my group and it wasnt the easiest time. Then I would get in with a pug and we would just crush it and breeze though. It gets exponentially easier when everyone does exactly what they are supposed to do.
Then again, I had more fun with the people i was running 20s with because ive been playing with them for years.
Or are you now backtracking from your ridiculous statement “In M+, if someone leaves for any reason, the key depletes, it’s wasted time on the other 4 people’s part” - cause that was clearly you just making stuff up.
By filling in slots with pugs. If you can learn 1-3 bosses thats 3 changes at vault loot a week compared the 1 every 7 mythic plus players have. Plus the vault loot.
Blizz needs to modernize mythic raiding. And catch up. Raiders have admitted if blizz was to go todays standards raiding would be like 6-10 man like other games. The only reason its 20 man is because of old gaming guild structures and possibly alienating some guild members. It’s a similar situation for overwatch moving to 5 vs 5 in pvp.
heck with that. I personally do not 4 man keys EVER. Not worth the trouble lol . It’s fine if you group with folks that want to waste time doing that. If a player leaves a key I start over with a new one instead of struggle.
Tell us Allolria how you can gear out in 304/311 gear in mythic plus faster than you can in mythic raids. By week 5, gear isn’t useful at all in every mythic raid guild i’ve ever been in. What are you smoking?
Only ever happens when it is 4 guildies + pug, and we’re geared enough that it doesn’t usually slow it down too much. 15’s really aren’t difficult. If it’s right at the start sure, but once you’re through a bit of the instance may as well just finish it. Still get that mythic ilvl loot even if you dont time it!
Correct me if im wrong but 2-3 keys a day every day of the week is going to net you a healthy amount of gear versus the progression of a raid or once a week raid loot…
Sure the problem is stingy raid, but m+ is the opposite end. Theres too much loot
My guild has a very robust mentoring system and I’ve indeed seen many of our raiders grow significantly since joining the guild. But the reality is that even with all the best tools available, people will learn at different rates than others and some people have lower skill ceilings than others. Unless you’re willing to bench people for underperforming in Heroic (we aren’t) then you’re going to have difficulties in raid. (That’s not to say that we have no standards for raid, we do. But they’re deliberately set on the lower end since we wanted to keep the goal of our guild as a social event rather than a competitive raiding thing.)
I’m looking at it from the other end. The biggest factor is how many carry-capable players you have available to you. If you have 4 carry-capable players, you can carry people through M+ but you cannot carry people through a Heroic raid. The number of people you can carry at once doesn’t matter too much since you can run M+ repeatedly. The strong players in my guild don’t mind too much dragging a single weaker player through a +15 every so often since they were going to be running those dungeons anyway.
All in all I really just don’t see why we should put the onus on casual AOTC guilds to git gud in order to have a reasonable loot scheme. I agree that gear should not come to them as easily as Mythic raiders, but the current problem is that the exact same group of players is heavily incentivized to run M+ since it’s significantly more profitable than Heroic raid.
Good news! Your sarcasm is wasted on me. I agree that gearing in Mythic+ is much smarter and time efficient (even though mythic+ requires roughly the same time requirement. Its the smaller nature of dungeons and drop chances that make it more time efficient).
The problem with raiding is much more than loot, however, they do need to either increase the number items that drop, and/or bring back extra chance tokens on top of the vault rewards. They also need to make raid gear upgradeable like the mythic+ gear. There is no reason to make mythic+ gear worse just make raiding more efficient.
Such a silly argument. If the shoe was on the other foot there would be no end of complaining.
Why can’t people just accept that M+ has extremely good low to mid reward?
We all know failing a 15+ isn’t as difficult as organising a mythic raid, so why are people acting like the rewards are equal lmao.
Heck you even get buffs after failing a key to ensure you can still complete it.
If you get your way and there is no loot balancing and mythic + stays the primary loot source… raiding will continue to die and those who have enjoyed raiding will continue to unsub. What’s in it for you that you argue for this so vehemently?
If they adjust the loot rewards from M+ so that rewards match the lack of difficulty (scaling higher past +20) - people will still M+ regardless of gear. Right?
So there’s no reason to retain the inflated ilvl rewards for failure, because people run M+ because it is fun, not for the rewards. Right?