I miss 10-mans. Proper ones, like I know the current raids can scale down to it, but I do miss the static 10-man raids because you needed everyone to be performing well and you had less room for someone like a Druid who doesn’t know what Swiftmend is.
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I plan to try raid leading with wotlk classic
Always wanted to learn it…just felt too scared with 25 mans 
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Mmm. I think that M+ loot being nerfed is unlikely. Because it works and it’s fun. There’s no reason to fix what ain’t broke. Given that Ion called out the impact on Heroic raiding specifically without being prompted, I find it more likely that Blizzard is looking into ways to make raiding even at lower difficulties comparable to running M+. Which I think is the best direction for the game to head. It’s good to have multiple good endgame paths.
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Oh yeah, no it shouldn’t be nerfed. Like I’ve said, M+ is in a good spot. Heroic raiding is comparable to +15 but is far less rewarding, so that’s what needs addressing. Normal and Heroic raiding have been neglected because of Blizzard’s love for Mythic, which has such low participation it’s just funny they put so much effort into it.
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I don’t think they understand what that is anymore…
Can they?
Mythic is server locked until the HOF is filled and that means for players not on mega servers they’re likely SOOL if they want to even try to find a PUG.
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where would the really terrible players be without it?
Raiders are spoiled.
We’ve seen arguments on the forums in the past where they have down played PVP and call it a side game feature.
Now they attack another feature, smh.
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It was main meat of the game (previously)
Maybe there is a fear of M+ replacing it
This isn’t a road any of us want to go down. Raiders aren’t a monolith and there are plenty of examples in this thread alone of M+ players saying similar things about raid. If we only want to judge each school of thought by it’s worst representatives then we’ll never have anything resembling a productive discussion.
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So is PVP, so is M+, so is casual content and on and on.
The thing is, raiding is boring, it sucks for a lot of people. It’s not fun, guilds have abused their players and the requirements are ridiculous.
The over all mentality of raiding is toxic.
It just not “FUN”, key word here, if you’re listening to what people say.
It is for me.
I get it, you don’t enjoy raiding. And I agree that you should have content options in the game that allow you a path to endgame power without needing to raid. Is it too much to ask that raiders be allowed to have something similar? You not enjoying raid isn’t an argument to destroy it for the people who do.
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Having watched the interview and read the summary of it on Wowhead … I don’t think Ion said that M+ gear needs to be nerfed, I think he said that it needs to be buffed to be its own thing
Let me explain:
But what Ion says is that folks who do stuff like +20s but doesn’t do mythic raiding - they should have gear that is specific to that type of content, we see it already in the Vault where we get gear that is ilvl the same as mythic raiding in a lot of slots but not all of 'em and this is what I think Ion was talking about
PvP has “If in Warmode/BGs/Arenas, increase to”, Mythic raiding has higher ilvls available than anywhere else as a flat amount, and Mythic+ has nothing of these two, yet it has another form of higher difficulty content in those who do run these obscenely high keys, and Ion seems to indicate that those people should be able to get something that is specific to 'em
It doesn’t sound like Ion wants to nerf M+ gear, it sounds like he wants to provide a “+2400 Rating/Mythic Raiding/+20 keys”-style of gear that’s available to people who run +20 keys or the like
There will always be gearing breakpoints where gear from one source will be available and good for another, but its not supposed to be overwhelmingly more powerful … but, this is an argument that largely just exists for min-maxxers, and you definitely don’t need to min-max to raid heroic
You do for Mythic but, as I implied, Mythic already has gear that is stronger than what’s available elsewhere, much like PvP at higher ratings has, but that none of this exists for M+
So… I don’t think anyone really though about what Ion said in the interview, because he doesn’t seem to think that M+ gear is too good
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To you.
You’re claiming raiders are being spoiled but you’re being just as bad by trying to speak for everyone.
Normal and Heroic raiders want to be able to play the game they want, just like a M+ runner and a PvPer or even a casual player. But because it’s raiding, you have an issue with them playing the game they want? How is that not just as entitled as the people you’re disparaging?
There’s conversation to be had for both raiding and M+ improvements, and shutting one side down by just calling them entitled gets us nowhere and breeds more resentment towards “the other side.”
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Just about everyone I Raid with also plays and enjoys M+. That’s the case for the majority of players I know who are in Raiding Guilds" since most are long time players who like the game.
If someone doesn’t have a decent Guild and/or doesn’t have a large friends list I understand why M+ would be their sole end game activity but I also see a lot of odd takes from those players here on the forums about Raiding and being in a decent Guild in general.
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That’s been my observation as well, though I also know a fair amount of players (including myself) who like raiding but aren’t quite so keen on M+. I don’t think we should leave those players in the dust.
I’m perfectly fine with M+ being the most popular game mode. I can even see the reasons why it would be. As you say, it’s a lot easier for solo players to find a good M+ team than it is to find a good raiding team. I just don’t want M+ to completely eclipse raiding in terms of rewards at all but the highest level of raiding. So long as I as a raider don’t feel like I’m compelled to run M+ in order to be competitive in my content of choice, I’ll be happy.
Raiding on a large scale is one of the few things that separates WOW from other games. The whole Guild>Raid eco system is a reason many long time players are still here and I think Blizz knows that and is a big factor in why they don’t want Raiding to die.
I enjoy M+ but if that’s all there was to do in WOW I’d probably jump full time to something like Destiny 2 which would scratch that small group itch but also comes with combat that I find far more enjoyable.
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I learned my lesson and am following my friends to other games. The problem going forward with WOW is groups are in discord and it’s easier to jump games. No one in our group is looking at Dragonland expac because they felt burned by Shadowlands.
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Good guy Ion, raise the minimum weekly key needed for good loot in the vault from +15 to +25 and see how many people still just enjoy running mythic+ for what it is, my guess is that number is going to drastically fall as most people only do mythic+ for MUCH easier gear than raiding.
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And raiders can buy specific critical items without any RNG and upgrade them, yet you don’t see M+ goers complaining about that system do we? Perhaps M+ should get that same benefit so I don’t have to play routlette every week that I get the 1 or 2 items that need from my vault across a pool of dozens of drops.
Then perhaps your group should progress into Mythic Raid during S1 and you would be in the same position as M+ players, now wouldn’t you?
Sure, but raid encounters are far more lenient in a number of ways that M+ isn’t. Outside of your tank role and depending on your healer roster, you can have someone disconnect in a raid boss encounter and still have a reasonably high probability of defeating that boss.
If that happens in a key and the player is unable to reconnect, the key is depleted.
Outside of Mythic, people are free to come and go in a Normal/Heroic raid without any type of repercussion to those who have invested time. In M+, if someone leaves for any reason, the key depletes, it’s wasted time on the other 4 people’s part.
In the end, you can’t look at M+ and Raid in a vacuum and expect to compare them 1v1 as each has its own subtle differences and nuances that impact why the reward structures are as they are.
I completely agree.
I know a lot of people like the notion of some level of RNG, but I think that style of looting has gotten old and only overcomplicates the discussion and at some point, someone feels shafted either because they’ve had bad RNG or in this case where a subset of players only want to gear from 1 avenue rather than another.
But there are others on the other end. We had 2 players in our little friends SOFO S3 raid who were in 4pc by the end of week 1, no M+ loot, but decked in 4pc. We had others who were doing M+ every week and Raiding weekly and it took them until week 14 to get 4pc.
Gearing isn’t perfect by any means, I agree there, but there are those who have good luck and there are those who have extremely bad luck and there isn’t really a system in place that helps mediate that.
I think we can all agree we believe our time is precious and we want to spend that time in-game doing what we find fun and engaging, whether that is raiding or M+. There really isn’t a reason at this point in the game where it should be an us-vs-them argument anymore, simply unify the gearing model and that solves the entire problem.
I disagree, it depends on several factors, the dungeon in question, and the number of people your raid is attempting to carry for AOTC. I know one guild that does AOTC carries every tier and they typically bring anywhere between 5 and 8 people per run and have those people die right after tagging the boss, without issue and they’re not even a CE guild.
Seems easy to me by those numbers, way easier than carrying multiple people in M+.
But if your raid team isn’t made up of very strong players and it’s a mix, shouldn’t it be on the raid leadership and role captains (if your raid has those) to help coordinate help for those players so they become better players?
If you just limp along, you’re always only ever going to be as strong as your weakest player and that’s a raid-driven issue at that point.
I get low pop servers have it much more difficult, but that also could be alleviated by just removing the HoF requirement altogether, which Ion did seem to indicate could be a possibility in the not-too-distant future.