It’s this with raids though. If you are a high end raider you dont need to grind gear to do the next raid on your difficulty.
It only impacts people coming back from taking from the game.
You full clear the difficultu under you and your own level. And get vault loot. You only need to get jailer once to get his vault right?
A chance at his vault, sure. Not that he’s good for anyone that isn’t after the gavel, and you still may not see him week one. Not as many people are reaching week one AOTC compared to clearing all +15s week one.
And again, the rewards for clearing a +15 are a higher ilvl than what you get for clearing Heroic in the vault, which is another reason +15 is basically mandatory, especially if you’re in a progression guild that doesn’t go for broke the first week.
The problem is no one does mythic raids. Back when I raided some of the heroic raids were easier and most normal guilds could kill the first few bosses.
Mythic raiding now is now like old heroic raiding. Tge difference is its very limiting and its just unaccessible due to the 20 man size for certain guilds. They need to look at making a mythic mode that is accessible. Personally I think raidibg needs some changes. Raids should be broken into wings like lfr. Mythic raids need not be so restricted/limited. Lower the guild count for cross realm.
If you were to down mythic bosses that would be getting your 15 loot. Down 3 and thats vault loot.
Raiding is the bread and butter of WoW. It isn’t going away any decade soon if ever.
I sure hope his objective is to bring the reward structure up and not simply bring M+ down.
Therein lies the main issue, compare Mythic raiding and +15. The difficulty is night and day, both in terms of encounters as well as building the group.
Blizzard puts WAY too much effort into Mythic raiding for way too little gain. Even in Ion’s most recent interview, he seems so deadset on Mythic remaining what it is. +15 and Heroic are far more comparable in terms of difficulty, so I’d like Heroic to yield similar rewards but it doesn’t. Which is where I’m mostly coming from.
At the end of the day, I think valor needs to drop in all parts of the game and be able to upgrade all armor in the game. Hell, maybe even world content can be upgraded to Mythic, it just requires a lot of valor. I’m honestly far past the point of locking gear behind certain content. Everyone just wants to have a determined gearing path in their preferred gameplay loop, and I honestly believe that should exist.
I think the discussion point is 15s aren’t even as hard as most heroic bosses let alone mythic bosses…
You can also spam M+ all week and get little or no gear too. I think that’s the bit that doesn’t get enough focus because it simply doesn’t support the Raid or Die agenda.
Furthermore, you can spam all these M+ dungeons all week and if you do get any loot, its at an ILVL that is lower than Heroic quality. Sure, this gear can be upgraded with Valor, but that requires multiple M+ dungeons to get the valor and then you’re limited at how fast you can upgrade that gear as well based on the weekly Valor cap; all of which always gets overlooked because it too doesn’t support their agenda.
Just like raiders can choose early on to PUG the first boss on Mythic and be eligible for a Mythic ILVL piece of gear as well. Remember, just because the vault has a chance to present the player with loot, doesn’t mean that loot is an upgrade or usable.
We do, but it’s capped at the amount you can earn per week and most major slots require 1 week of fully capping to upgrade 1 piece of gear 3 item levels, or 2 weeks for 2H weapons for 3 item levels.
An organized raid team is still the fastest way to get the highest ILVL.
I don’t disagree with this, but to use that to justify harming M+ all because the raid design team made a mistake is really not the way to go about addressing the problem.
It’s just like the concern with the number of raid drops, if they’re too low, advocate for a way so that raid drops are more plentiful, and don’t impair M+ in the process. We already saw how detrimental that was in SL S1 of M+.
I think that heavily depends on the player.
I also think with the new rotation of dungeons in DF, there will be substantially more re-progression than we’ve seen in the past, particularly in S1 and S2, where all dungeons will likely effectively be new for most. Maybe that will be enough, IDK.
Believe me, I understand the sentiment. But if you can’t see how that is a player-driven issue in your case and in others one that is dictated by raid leadership & the community, I’m afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree.
So then go back to Normal and re-clear Normal if you’re stuck on a Heroic boss. If you solely raid, there is generally a high probability that drops from the last bosses on the lower difficulty have benefits to your group if you’re stuck on a higher difficulty boss.
That’s a two-way street and both sides are guilty of that.
100% this. Frankly, I think we should be able to upgrade gear from any group content you do personally, so people don’t feel compelled to run other content who don’t.
I think they are, at least at the start of the season, but I can certainly see the point later on as player power gets more compounded and the difficulty of dungeons seems to scale a bit more lenient as seasons progress.
I’m hoping that with the new rotation system for M+, some of that will be curbed solely by the fact of re-progression on new and perhaps dungeons that have never been part of the M+ rotation, at least in Seasons 1 and 2 of Dragonflight.
Perhaps the way to address that is key depletes by 5 rather than 3 on season reset.
Or you can run the raid once, and get no gear. And it isn’t spammable. But I guess this doesn’t support your M+ or die agenda.
Oh no, you have to run a few of your spammable dungeons to get currency to upgrade your items? Can’t do that with the raid - there’s no upgrade currency. But I guess that also simply doesn’t support your M+ or die agenda either.
It’s not capped right now.
Complete and utter lie.
They’re really not, outside of season 1 when you don’t already have high gear from the previous season, M15 is so much easier than full clearing the heroic raid. (And as a bonus, you can fail the m15 timer and get your free piece of mythic raid ilvl loot too!)
Raids are its own thing. You don’t even use half your kit/cc don’t work. It’s more about getting everyone to be on the same page mechanics wise.
Dungeons is less people but you use more of your spellbook.
They definitely aren’t. We beat 15s on the first day of the patch pretty easily without any new gear. Even with the “new dungeons”, I went blind into the content and 15s were still pretty easy.
Even Lower, which was supposed to be “super super hard”, I beat that the first week on a 15 (2nd day of the patch).
Saying 15s are more akin to Heroic is not far off the mark. 20s start to become more challenging, beginning to require current patch gear, and then 25s are actually challenging and require current gear and higher skill levels more equivalent to like pre-nerf CE.
Yeah. This is why I love dungeons. Dungeons more fully explore the depths of each class and what they can bring to the table. Raids are very scripted and unless Blizzard specifically programs a gimmick to use a mechanic, you don’t interact with other players in the raid and actually just either act as a DPS bot or an HPS bot.
I do think raid encounters can be cool to experience but they’re not a tenth as replayable as dungeons.
Yea. Blizz leaves in the class gimmicks for mythic raiders.
No. Stupid thread.
No one in their right mind, would waste that amount of time to just fill their vault with 3 extra choices lol.
I want to respond to each point, but one thing I’d like to start off with is saying I’m not at all advocating for M+ to be hurt in any way. The way it is right now is good. My argument stems specifically from the fact it is more rewarding than Heroic, which I can attest to as the last three expansions I’ve ended tiers with more M+ loot than raiding loot outside of trinkets and weapons.
The thing is, I’m more speaking from experience. I’ve done both the raid only grind and the M+ grind. I ended up with more gear 100% of the time doing M+, without raiding even coming close. I don’t advocate for Raid or Die; Hell, because of my alt obsession, I want to be able to get high ilvl gear in the world without even going into instances because I don’t raid on anyone other than my main (and, again, I really dislike M+). I’m the exact opposite to the Raid or Die mentality, just to be sure that’s cleared up.
You still have to kill the boss, whereas you can fail a +15 and still get gear.
And that second part…ugh, don’t I know it. I’ve been in ring Hell from my M+ section of the vault. Honestly, the vault requires a separate discussion in the fact it is so freaking predatory to chase that brief high. I’ve always been more of a proponent of vendors and deterministic gearing, and that would be for everyone, not just raiders.
Again, disagree here based on experience, but it depends on how far that organized raid is pushing.
S4 is a bit of an anomaly overall, but day 1 of Castle Nathria when S4 went live, two people in our raid were fully decked out in M+ gear by the end of the week whereas most people had one piece of loot from the raid. Throughout most raid tiers I’m in more M+ than raid because I’m lucky to get a single piece of raid loot a week, and it tends to be the same cloak every single time (because I’m cursed with only receiving cloaks in raids AND the stupid vault…)
Like I said, no interest in touching M+ right now. It’s in a great spot for gearing compared to raiding. I do advocate for higher raid drops, that’s all I really want. Just a reason that I can only raid and not feel like I’m falling behind because I don’t M+.
Yeah, I actually agree with this. I mentioned above I might dislike M+ less once we have this rotation of dungeons. I also think a part of my disdain for M+ comes from the Blizzard side of things where they apparently can’t introduce more than one new mega dungeon an expansion. I doubt M+ is to blame for that, but I really miss getting new dungeons. That’s 100% a Blizzard issue, though, and their lack of ability to provide content.
Either way, I think the dungeon rotation may improve my taste for M+ so I’m looking forward to seeing how that feels. I think this expansion really burned me because of the constant grind for that stupid IQD. I don’t like having to regrind the same piece of loot, that’s why I hated Azerite gear so much.
Oh it’s player-driven, 100%. But it’s going to be one of my criticisms of the system. It’s the same way I criticize the ridiculous anima grind. I don’t NEED everything from it, but that desire being a player-driven issue makes me loathe the system immensely. M+ is no different in my mind, but you’re right, that comes down to the individual.
Absolutely, no denying that. Since I’m on one side, I tend to experience the other side telling me. After the last few days of discussions, I’m doing my best to put my biases aside to have the real discussion that needs to happen with gearing in general.
I also feel bad for PvP players but I have zero experience there so I can’t comment at all.
Yep! The creation catalyst is probably the best gear thing they’ve added to the game in ages. The ability to make tier pieces without raiding is a stellar idea, and the biggest issue with it was 8 weeks was WAY too long. I’d argue it should be available the first week with the cooldown of only one piece that week.
Another good example, I’ve brought this up before, was the Azerite armor vendor. While the system itself was awful, I really liked the ability to break down other armor pieces to be able to deterministically choose which Azerite piece I want.
I think that’s what it really comes down to: I’m about as anti-RNG as you can get when it comes to gear progression. If there were ways to have a clear gear path forward, I think that would solve many issues. Valor being able to upgrade any and everything and dropping from every part of the game would be my fix, but maybe that’s an extreme. Or throwing in vendors that you can buy pieces for valor or another currency, too. Just…options that don’t rely so heavily on RNG and running every form of content to fill out a stupid vault for the chance at a good piece.
The issue with raiding and M+ is just compounded by Blizzard’s utter reverence for RNG and believing it’s the only true method of gear acquisition. So even though there are debates and arguments, ultimately Blizzard just doesn’t know how to design satisfying reward systems.
I think part of the issue is that even if that’s true, it’s a lot easier to get a good M+ team than it is to get a good raid team, if for no other reason than because it’s a lot easier to find 5 strong players than it is to find 20. If you assume that you have access to a strong raid team, then it’s not an issue as you already de facto have access to a strong dungeon team as well. You can run both at your leisure and reap the benefits of both.
On the other hand if you have an AOTC raiding guild that’s a mix of both strong and weak players (not uncommon for casual friend guilds) then it’s a lot easier to carry your weaker players through M+ (or to assemble strong M+ teams in general) than it is to carry everyone through AOTC. Four strong players can very easily carry a M+ run but they cannot do the same for a Heroic raid. So it’s really raid teams of mixed skill players who suffer the most from the current paradigm.
Honestly, this.
My current raid is 23-28 players strong. But I can say right now half of them aren’t strong performers. The ones that are run M+ together so the M+ groups are super strong, clearing upwards of +20 with little issue. But we struggled on Jailer for six weeks because of the poor performers in the raid (also Sepulcher has way too many mechanics that must be done perfectly or it’s a wipe, even at lower difficulties). With raiding, you get a range of player skills, whereas M+ it’s easier to curate to equivalent performers.
At the end of the day there’s no definitive right and wrong. I’m voicing my opinion as someone who feels like she has to run M+ in order to raid, but that may just be my bias perception. I can say that raid gearing is the worst feeling gear path between the two, and it does seem Blizzard is realizing their obsession with Mythic has harmed Normal and Heroic raiding because when people debate raid vs. M+, people only ever point out Mythic raiding when like 1% of the total population actually does that part of the game.
10 mans from Wotlk were perfect…wish they bring it back
I don’t agree here. Any play avenue should reward eventually, the same tier of gear. Not for the same effort, imo, easier avenues should take more work. But, eventually, we should all be viable, no matter the path we enjoy, so we can play in other areas effectively, if we want.