None of the magic itself is sentient. Beings made of it have an agenda but death knights were always able to wield death magic in the shadowlands against death and warlocks and demon hunters had no issues wielding fel against fel beings
The verbiage, yes. Though Legion seemed to lean into that with everything that happened there relating to Elune (Elune’s tear being a pillar of creation alongside TITAN artifacts, purging the Emerald Nightmare, awakening LIGHT’s Heart and the hint she made the Naaru…). The writers seem to have changed their minds, I wonder if they’ll change them back.
It seems to flow back to the Cosby Suite crew chief Afrasiabi (who was one of the directors of WoD, Legion and BfA).
Me looking at the results of the secular ideologies of national socialism and communism: 
Honestly I think it’s a problem of ideology in general. You make someone absolutely devoted to an idea above all else, and, if unbalanced by a lack of compassion for their fellow humanity, they’ll do terrible things, and follow terrible people, to uphold it.
But that’s a whole other thing.
On the original point, a villainous arc of the Light could genuinely be cool and interesting, but let’s not pretend it’s not been done. Between the Scarlet Crusade, the last two leading figures in the Church of the Holy Light turning evil, and the intensity of the Lightforged during the Fourth War (not to mention whatever Yrel’s up to on Draenor) we’ve certainly had a lot of negative portrayals of the Light. To make the Light “the villain” and the void some sort of secret force for good would ultimately be a disappointment. If they can do it with nuance, then it could be good.
I mean, I like that about the Light. The Light has a soft, gentle, healing side. It has a justice-oriented retributive side. And it has a zealous, fanatical side. It can be used for good or ill, depending on your individual convictions. That’s nifty. To make “The Light” as an entire cosmic power a nemesis would be a mistake, I think.
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National Socialism was not secular. Hitler was at least sympathetic to The Catholic Church which frequently collaborated with his government. Hitler despised atheists, proclaiming “Atheists have no place in our Germany.” and many were sent to the camps.
The communist governments of Russia and China have to be taken into account that the governments that preceded them in both cases were autocratic and authoritarian as well as brutal in repressing dissent. When the Reds took over, it really didn’t change much of substance.
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I’d argue that the ideology itself didn’t necessitate religion, and Hilter himself was frequently critical of Christianity, unless it proved itself “positive” by directly subscribing to national socialism. Even then it was heavily regulated. National socialism is rooted in ideas such as nationalism, socialism and social Darwinism, so I’d argue the ideology had a secular basis, not a religious one. Religion was only acceptable inasmuch as it subordinated itself to the ideology. Still, we’ve touched on one of the most debated topics historians argue about in the study of that whole mess, so best not derail the thread further. I was simply disagreeing with the notion that religion is the only way to persuade otherwise good people to do evil.
(Pokes head into thread)
(Quietly tiptoes out again)
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What both instance are are authoritarian approaches. And religion is a time tested tool to get people to sign up on the authoritarian bandwagon as is being demonstrated again in America.
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To be fair, so is political ideology. In the end, the approach is to convince people that the belief system is a cause requires sacrificing freedoms. Religion isn’t the only one and history has shown that political ideologies (even atheist ones) are also effective.
And it doesn’t have to be belief systems, cults of personality also work. Look at the cultural revolution in China.
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Politics and Religion have always been twin horses driving the chariots of nations.
In fact in the classic empires there was no separation between the two as emperors (even the ones in Rome) were considered living gods.
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Both can be effective, as I mentioned, because they form the basis of a belief system that can cast as needing “protecting” or “expanding”
If you mean “twins”, and is you need both, I think that wrong. There are examples of where you can get by without religion, Stalinism, Maoism, Cambodia. And the inquisition is an example of using just religion.
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Yet the inquisition was also used to serve political ends such as seizing the wealth of the Knights Templar. Charlemagne as another example was famous for his campaigns to convert the heathens. By an amazing coincidence he picked out those heathens that were suffering the burden of excess wealth.
The point is it’s very rare that the two have been separated. Kings used religion to legitimize their rule and modern politicians use religion to serve their ideology.
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Solarion was sharing a quote he thinks Blizzard’s writers live by, not what he himself thinks.
The problem is anything that could be used villainous arc for the Light has been poorly done so far or not set up.
- The Scarlet Crusade been reduced to a stale joke; persistent recurring antagonists who never pose any threat and how they replenish their losses is plot hole.
- Turalyon and every major character who uses the Light has been moving AWAY from fanaticism, not towards it.
- Xe’ra was poorly written and given her one-hit jobbing death in Legion, she wouldn’t be a threat even if she did return.
- Yrel’s group are stuck in AU Draenor with no way to get to the MU.
I agree that to make “The Light” as an entire cosmic power a nemesis would be a mistake.
Mussolini was an avowed atheist who worked with the Catholic Church to exploit it; Hitler did the latter too. Working with the church that way proves nothing, no matter how much you want it to.
Hitler also proclaimed how he hated that Christianity was the religion of Germany and said Islam would’ve been better.
“You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?” - (actual Hitler quote) ‘Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs’, by Albert Speer, p. 115
Citation needed on your opinion of Charlemagne. And I’d be happy to see more WoW characters based on historical figures, as long as both good and bad characters draw from a variety of sources.
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While I don’t doubt that is an actual quote from Hitler, It is coming from Albert Speer though. And Inside the Third Reich is not the most reliable source. Something Speer himself admitted.
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Fair point, might not be reliable on all matter, but it is on that.
The Light has no will.
In the Blizzblizz interview with Johnny Cash and Michael Bighby, quote:
“The Light is a fundamental force, but it has been personified many times by its followers and others, believing that it had a “will”, or that it made deliberate choices, or that it was “good”, while the Void was “evil”, but such concepts do not apply to the Light and the Void, they are simply primal forces with their morality characterized by how they are wielded.”
The Light is not evil, the Light is not good and the Light is not morally grey or neutral. It is a primal force of the WoW universe like all the other ones which also has no sapiency. Having no consciousness it has about as much morality as its actual real-world equivalent, the force of gravity. It does not have a domain (thats ever been shown) nor does it have a being behind it (outside player speculation) or a messah-type character.
The closest religion that actually fits its description is the Jedi from Star Wars and even THAT is a stretch. Magic in WoW is energy, like electricity and like electricity, it does not care how you use it but how its activated. There can be no forces OF the Light because nothing of purpose can come FROM the Light.
((And if you find all this dull and monotoneing WoW’s already depressing magic cosmology, you are not alone.))
The light can be used by bad people still. See Yrel and the Scarlets.
She’s actually a more powerful light-wielder as the fanatic tyrant than she was when good.
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This does not matter.
Gravity can be used by bad people, magnetism can be used by bad people, and nuclear energy can be used by bad people. The Light is a fundamental force of the WoW universe that has no ideology, philosophy or will of its own. The only factual “good” attribute that can be prescribed to Light is how its activated, being the user has good intentions. Fel on the other hand has a strong “evil” attribute to it in that the user must destroy souls for it to work. Regardless, Fel and Light themselves can not be good, evil, neutral, morally grey, etc.
You can not prescribe morality to something that has no mind. The people who use Light for evil are irrelevant to the Light its self. Fire can be used to warm a home or burn it down, it did not think to do either.
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Unless of course you’re hell-bent on making the Light a standin for your personal religion. And Blizzard did kind of present it that way at first when the game was still pretty much Orcs vs. Humans. The MMORG not being a single person command and conquer game is much more nuanced.
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True, you technically could, but the lore has changed a lot since those days. Nowadays this would be like making a personal stand in of a religion worshiping a tool, rather than any type of God. Granted, its a very fancy tool.
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