The point of my post was about perception from the in universe people and not player knowledge. War 1-2 was about evil orcs and good humans, nothing more nothing less. It wasn’t until war 3 that we saw orcs could be good, the these noble savages had been (semi willing?) Pawns to pure evil.
Alterac was coward/evil humans trying to save their skin by selling out their world. The orcs laughed and found it pitiful but useful. Maybe those humans do get to live, maybe they would die after, who knows but to every other alliance member this was the most evil thing a member of their race could have done.
The troll on the other hand have expressly been seen as evil within the world of azeroth by every other race in the eastern kingdom (totally biased of course but we were selling the games as humans/dwarves/elves good, monsters bad) The trolls joined the Horde only to get revenge on the high elves.
And lastly, while I don’t recall every mission in either game, ultimately Stormwind is destroyed, Iron forge is under siege, Dalaran leveled, Elven country side ravaged and many more. The orcs nearly destroyed every single landmass on the eastern kingdom except Lordaron and the other northern countries.
The alliance story takes place after the horde so yes they win in the end
I know. I’m disagreeing with the presentation. From their perspective, apparently Orcs were capable of diplomacy, it is evident in that they allied with the Amani and they were receptive when Alterac opened a dialogue.
Again, it would be evident they aren’t focused on exterminating all life when they’re allying with local peoples. They weren’t even using fel by the Second War.
And the Alliance should be aware they could win because they did rather well in a number of battles. There wasn’t some utterly widespread defeatist attitude.
Every single nation attacked was able to survive besides Stormwind. Ironforge, Gnomergan, Stormgarde, Gilneas, Lordaeron, and Quel’thalas, Aerie Peak - none of these nations perished. The most of the campaign is them dogging the Horde.
Maybe it’s do to the fact that in most neutral expansions the hordes only relevence is to betray the alliance. I also want to point out we have had a SINGLE horde novel in this games lifespan. Shadows of the Horde, everything else is either neutral (Warcrimes, the Shattering) or alliance dominated with the horde only being their to be villains (Tides of War, Wolfheart, Before the Storm)
In legion the only order hall that felt like it was horde themed was shaman, everything else was either heavily alliance (Paladin, Priest, Mage, Hunter, Druid, Rogue) or was a third party (Warrior, Warlock, Demon Hunter, Death Knight, Monk) . And the horde needed to work with multiple alliance characters who hate them, and Alleria insulted us to our face (Infact the only reason Tyrande didn’t constantly insult horde players is because people complained)
When the horde gets focus it’s solely to be a villain, those Cinematics? Old Soldier was created with the sole purpose of getting people to think Saurfang was gonna be proactive, a deception to convince players the story was gonna be all right.
The horde exist for one reason at this point narratively, to oppose the alliance.
Lord of the Clans was 2001. Vanilla came out in 2004.
Twilight of the Aspects was around Cataclysm. But it is about Neutral Thrall working with aspects to counter the Twilight Hammer.
Well id like to avoid getting sucked into a conversation of technicalities but sure okay the reality of what happened wasn’t as bad as what was described. The premise was still horde evil and alliance good and this alien/demon invasion has to be stopped or bad end for most people.
At the end of the day, what do you do when presented with this? Some people had to think it was possible to rehabilitate instead of just execute them all like vermin. On the other hand, the game really did want to present them as the evil unstoppable horde, so keeping them around would be foolish.
All this to say it was a really hard choice and that fielding the camps with literally anyone from the alliance was going to end in orcs getting abused as ‘payback’. There is no good choice and it’s only because War 3 and meta knowledge that we know now that orcs could maybe have gothen along. (And then WoD happens and derails that notion ugh.)
Honestly I just hate when the narrative chooses to be picky. The Horde get mad about the camps but alliance can’t bring up war 1-2 because “not our fault”. The elves bring up garithos but suddenly alliance can’t go “not our fault”?
I do want to keep the war in warcraft, I just want the story to be more natural instead of only working because we choose to forget something. Horde want to hate the alliance? Then maybe the alliance should actually do something that is 100% intentionally cruel to horde so that we as players with the power to see both sides can’t go “oh but this was a misunderstanding” because doing that all the time just makes the faction that reacts look like idiots.
I hate that cata could have been avoided had Thrall actually just investigated for two seconds to see what had happened to the night elves. I hate that it was his pride and internment camp grudge that prevented him from even bothering and then never gets called out for it. Heck he berated jaina for not trying for peace hard enough. I hate that Varian was never even going to consider the Sha as a weapon. I hate that the freaking narrative had to go out of ita way to prove him right before he even voiced his opinion to insure the alliance stay squeaky clean.
I hate that the only way to make half the crap work is by ignoring the past rather than using it to drive onward. Both the alliance story and horde’s will continue to suffer in my eyes if we just keep playing the same hand over and over while seeing what we leave out differently each time. This is already MoP “But what if this time-” story and I hate that.
No, because the War of Thorns was retaliation for the alliance violating the stand-still during legion and attacking the forsaken at Stormheim, you startd this, but when we come back at you, you act like you did nothing wrong? this is why the alliance is behind on everything.
You know as well as I do the Alliance is never allowed to attack a horde territory.
And when they do it always falls apart.
The rest is BS. And I aint interested in it. You can keep all of it.
Anyway, enjoy the Battle for Dazaralor.
Yet another raid for Horde’s benefit.
Yey…
The horde doesnt need raids.
They outright destroy.
They get “their” cities “raided” with lots of loot and mounts in their faction’s style.
The Alliance players gain virtually nothing from these raids.
They dont advance the story, their loot is garbage AND we take nothing away from the Horde.
Hurray favortism but what you gonna do? Should be used to it by now.
The Horde gets to see themselves be turned into evil villains and then get to be the people who deserve to loose to the noble alliance.
When the Horde destroys an Alliance city its to hit us with the villain bat. Then they loose in Tirisfal (and being forced to destroy something you wanted in a failed attempt to set a trap is a victory, it was no “for the Horde” moment). Then we go through three leveling zones and fail to accomplish anything in all three zones (while the Alliance goes through a redemption are for Jaina). Then we get warfronts where the noble Alliance is getting revenge for what they lost (while what we lost is just "lost). And now we get a raid were we get to fail to stop the Alliance and which is heavy on the villain bat as Blizzard goes out the way in making sure the Alliance is all “we didn’t want to have to do this” while the Horde is all “what have we done for power” and “we have no honor”.
And you expect me to have any sympathy on how the Alliance player deserves payback?
Pray real hard, maybe someday the Blizzard Gods will make a raid in Stormwind where both sides get a bunch of Alliance themed mounts and other cool stuffs.
Not sympathy, just understand that anything less that the complete extermination of the horde is an insult.
The horde don’t deserve to win at anything, because, that’s what happens when you are enemy of life.
You guys want to raid alliance cities and kill aliance characters? go ahead, just pay the price of getting your places be destroyed.
silvermoon would be a start, then you guys can go to stormwind or boralus to kill everyone except those that you want to kill. just like garrosh and rasthakan.
blizzard committed a horrible mistake with teldrassil and they are doing an even worse job with giving a good war story to either side.
You’re kind of proving Tannaril’s point. You are telling Horde players that we don’t deserve to feel good about anything our faction does in the game. Which is also what the game is telling us.
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