Is survival hunter fun? why is it fun?

[Syrenta-illidan]

RSV was fun and I would like it back.

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

@Bepples-barthilas

All three Rogue specs use Stealth and dual-wielding.

This is like saying all three hunter specs have a pet which they do. This isnt even a good example

@Bepples-barthilas

“All changes are automatically good”

Pretty athletic with all that mental gymnastics there man

@Bepples-barthilas

Well, actually, most of them quit because, in case you haven’t realised, the game is kind of in the dumps right now.

You do understand most mmos still dont have the numbers WoW has right? Even at its low its still making a killing.

@Bepples-barthilas

Yes, which is why I avoided melee classes and played Survival Hunter while melee players stuck to their classes and avoided Hunter.

So nothing has changed.

@Bepples-barthilas

Survival was a fully capable ranged DPS and is now a melee DPS.

Guess melee classes are not capable. Dang.

@Bepples-barthilas

Plus, Demo and Outlaw were both very controversial changes. ESPECIALLY Demo.

They were much larger changes.

@Bepples-barthilas

When you roll a Hunter at level 1 you are ranged. You literally have to buy a melee weapon off a vendor at level 10 to play a Hunter. Hunters are ranged by default.

When I roll a warrior I started with a 1 hander. I now use a 2 handed axe. Same logic.

@Bepples-barthilas

+20% crit chance to Raptor Strike did not make you melee.

Take a good look at the talent tree. It isnt exactly screaming ranged. Its literally got Counter Attack. also, giving you 20% crit to a melee attack doesnt make you melee than idk what does. Especially for a sandbox game.

@Bepples-barthilas

Yes Survival had a lot of identity and flavour in that time which is why everyone played it. It was even the most popular spec in the entire game in a couple tiers. How the mighty have fallen.

LOL no

@Bepples-barthilas

It’s currently 2330 on the west coast and 0230 on the east coast. You’re still here arguing that other people care too much about this discussion. Whatever you say, man.

Yeah, I was at work getting paid to listen to you complain. I should be your therapist.

@Watermist-skywall

*5 years

Im including notes before live.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

But they did, anyone who was playing SV in WoD was either forced to play melee in Legion, or switch to another spec, and thus no longer being able to play RSV.

So pretty much when blizzard nerfs or buffs a specific class on any patch ever this happens. Its no different.

@Bepples-barthilas

Wait until you see how much damage the other Hunter specs can do at range.

I kill the other 2 hunter specs while they are trying to stay ranged.

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

This is like saying all three hunter specs have a pet which they do. This isnt even a good example

Yes, exactly, it is like saying that. It’s a capability that helps to define the class just like ranged weapons and pets help to define Hunters.

The melee Survival experiment shows us what was already obvious: if you want to make a spec unique you should add stuff to it instead of taking away from it. There is no sense in trying to improve a spec by handicapping it.

Make Lone Wolf only buff single-target Marksmanship abilities and tune it to be equal to a pet’s ST, and make Survival ranged. Hunters are about ranged weapons and pets. Stop mutilating the class identity.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Pretty athletic with all that mental gymnastics there man

What else am I meant to conclude from “every ability changed at some point”? Why else would you say it except to try to approach this from some naive “changes are self-justifying” standpoint? Each change has to stand on its own merits.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

You do understand most mmos still dont have the numbers WoW has right? Even at its low its still making a killing.

There is absolutely zero excuse for how poorly WoW is performing right now even if it still has the highest subscription count for an MMO which might not be the case anymore. People have been at home a lot more lately, in case you haven’t noticed, and the rest of the video game industry is booming. So why is WoW declining so sharply? Blizzard has severe problems from top to bottom; clueless managers, directionless developers, and hopeless PR. At this point WoW is coasting on brand recognition and sunk-cost fallacy. Their post-WoD “developer first” philosophy hasn’t worked.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

So nothing has changed.

Actually they handed a Hunter spec to melee players.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Guess melee classes are not capable. Dang.

Yeah, actually. Melee is inherently a disadvantage over being ranged. They need tuning and utility to compensate. This is basic common sense: being able to attack from 40 yards away is better than not being able to do so.

We still have melee classes for the thematics, but mixing melee and ranged in the same class is generally a bad idea. We already had that situation with Druids and Shamans and it’s taught us that it’s very hard to keep a melee spec relevant when there’s a perfectly good ranged spec one respec away. So one wonders how Blizzard figured it would work out well to introduce the problem to a third class; one with two other ranged DPS instead of one, and one that’s explicitly and prominently themed around ranged weapons.

This entire time you’ve still been evading the fact that melee is nothing but a handicap for Survival that holds the spec back. Can you highlight what positives you think the spec gets out of being melee?

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

They were much larger changes.

Demonology is still ranged and Outlaw is still melee, so nope.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

When I roll a warrior I started with a 1 hander. I now use a 2 handed axe. Same logic.

Different kinds of melee weapons are not differences in capability. A ranged weapon lets you attack from rar away. So it isn’t the same situation.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Take a good look at the talent tree. It isnt exactly screaming ranged. Its literally got Counter Attack. also, giving you 20% crit to a melee attack doesnt make you melee than idk what does. Especially for a sandbox game.

Survival Hunter Talents Classic WoW

Literally you talking about how the talent tree doesn’t support being a melee spec.

Your final talent is a ranged ability and your most powerful talent is +15% agility, a stat that gave 2 ranged attack power for every 1 melee attack power. Tell me more about how SV in classic is best played in melee. Or I’ll just check your old videos where you actually had it right before abruptly flipping to the wrong conclusion early this year.

Or maybe it’s just one big satirical joke I’m missing, right?

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

LOL no

appetite for destruction

Most popular Hunter spec in early 3.3 Icecrown

Class Distribution Data for Patch 5.4.2

Most popular spec in the game in 4.3 (Dragon Soul)

Most popular Hunter spec at several points in MoP including most of 5.4 Siege of Orgrimmar.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes/hunter/survival

Most popular Hunter spec in 6.0 Highmaul

You can argue that everyone was playing it begrudgingly all you want (sentiment from the time does NOT reflect that), but the fact of the matter is SV routinely saw a lot of play. I know it’s hard for you to come to terms with this because in your world view melee SV is the best thing since sliced bread, but ranged SV was just a more popular and widely played spec.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

So pretty much when blizzard nerfs or buffs a specific class on any patch ever this happens. Its no different.

Call me crazy but I think there’s a difference between tuning and totally remaking a spec to chase a different audience.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

I kill the other 2 hunter specs while they are trying to stay ranged.

According to current PvP participation statistics you’re getting killed by BM Hunters right now.

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

@Bepples-barthilas

There is no sense in trying to improve a spec by handicapping it.

Mental gymnastics in a nuttshell per usual

@Bepples-barthilas

There is absolutely zero excuse for how poorly WoW is performing right now even if it still has the highest subscription count for an MMO which might not be the case anymore.

except its old as hell on an out of date engine. I mean ima never stop playing till they shut it down but what do you expect? We live in a day and age of constant new titles being released, a pandemic which ruined quite alot of people financially, and game development being slowed down while the company has been dealing with the stupid lawsuit and Coviid. It happens. Also doesnt help when streamers and youtubers decide to not play it anymore to keep up public appearances due to the lawsuit to save thier own hides for playing it. There are alot of factors in this. But all you wanna hear is because you have some things you are unsatisfied with so thats the entire reason. Again the game is old enough to legally drive in the states. Most games dont see that kind of life span at all.

@Bepples-barthilas

Actually they handed a Hunter spec to melee players.

Keep crying scrub

@Bepples-barthilas

Yeah, actually. Melee is inherently a disadvantage over being ranged

Cool. Lets leave lots of complaints to blizzard to only leave the ranged hunters specs, and spell casters. all melee must be deleted.

@Bepples-barthilas

Demonology is still ranged and Outlaw is still melee, so nope.

Theres that mental gymnastics again.

@Bepples-barthilas

Different kinds of melee weapons are not differences in capability. A ranged weapon lets you attack from rar away. So it isn’t the same situation.

Grasping straws here

@Bepples-barthilas

Or maybe it’s just one big satirical joke I’m missing, right?

You catch on fast when you want too.

@Bepples-barthilas

Call me crazy but I think there’s a difference between tuning and totally remaking a spec to chase a different audience.

Sounds like they were just expanding on the original idea of what the spec was supposed to be. Makes sense to me.

@Bepples-barthilas

According to current PvP participation statistics you’re getting killed by BM Hunters right now

Riiiiiight.

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Mental gymnastics in a nuttshell per usual

The real mental gymnastics is thinking Survival was improved by giving it a unique weakness v.s. the rest of its own class.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

except its old as hell on an out of date engine.

Ridiculous excuse. None of the major problems brought on by Shadowlands were related to engine limitations. It’s entirely the developers wasting time, money, and effort on rancid system design that everyone hates. There are plenty of ancient games that still see plenty of activity. People still play Runescape for crying out loud. Blizzard made a ton of money off WoW classic and WoW BC. And modern WoW’s reception precipitously got a lot worse with BFA and SL. Clearly the problem is far more acute than “oh the game is just old now”.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Cool. Lets leave lots of complaints to blizzard to only leave the ranged hunters specs, and spell casters. all melee must be deleted.

Or we could just keep melee to their own classes and not try to force it on a class where it doesn’t work?

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Theres that mental gymnastics again.

What, the basic observation that Survival changed role while those other specs didn’t is mental gymnastics?

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Grasping straws here

Use your brain. If I swap from, for example, two one-handed weapons to one two-handed weapon, most of the difference is thematic and there’s no major difference in capability. The spec’s melee either way. If I lose a bow or a gun and have to use a melee weapon instead that means I’ve lost the ranged capability I had before. So stop trying to force this false equivalency. Like the rest of your points it isn’t working.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

You catch on fast when you want too.

So in the multiple times you directly said on your channel that Survival was not meant to be melee in Vanilla before 2021, including videos that were intended as guides, it was just one big obvious joke every time?

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Sounds like they were just expanding on the original idea of what the spec was supposed to be. Makes sense to me.

Again, according to you this was not the case. It was not meant to be ranged in Classic and BC.

You can keep pretending it was a joke or whatever or keep arguing that somehow this isn’t relevant because the video was from Classic even though you keep referring to Survival’s original design which implies Classic but it’s clear to everyone reading here that you’re being evasive and hypocritical.

If you really want to have a discord call, here’s a condition: give me an honest, upfront answer as to why you abruptly changed your stance on this issue. Because in the many weeks this inane arguing has been happening you’ve been totally evasive the entire time.

• I will be showing you how [Survival] is actually NOT a melee spec
• Survival was never about being a melee spec. It was all pretty much getting the hell out of there.
• As I’ve said before, this is not an actual melee spec. A lot of people want to believe that it is it is but it is not.
• You’re not necessarily a melee spec. I don’t care what anybody says. You’re still a ranged spec. You’re always going to be a ranged spec playing a Hunter.

From now on I’ll only push this particular point and I won’t respond to anything else you post.

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Riiiiiight.

There are 4x as many BM Hunters in 1800+ in 2s and 5x as many in 3s. This isn’t BFA anymore.

P.S. Don’t think I didn’t notice the fact that you didn’t respond to the part where I linked all the statistics showing SV was a widely-played spec before Legion

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

@Bepples-barthilas

The real mental gymnastics is thinking Survival was improved by giving it a unique weakness v.s. the rest of its own class.

The real mental gymnastics is thinking Survival was downgraded by giving it a unique strength v.s. the rest of its own class

@Bepples-barthilas

Ridiculous excuse

Its literally what every single person complains about, Hence the whole Concept people have of wanting a WoW2. Cope more.

@Bepples-barthilas

Or we could just keep melee to their own classes and not try to force it on a class where it doesn’t work?

Nobody forced anything as you ran away to play the same spec but with a different name.

@Bepples-barthilas

What, the basic observation that Survival changed role while those other specs didn’t is mental gymnastics?

Its okay if you never played those specs. Its kinda obvious you havent.

@Bepples-barthilas

Use your brain. If I swap from, for example, two one-handed weapons to one two-handed weapon, most of the difference is thematic and there’s no major difference in capability.

Grasping straws to make a coherent argument to justify why you like staying 40 yards away and afraid of being up close and personal. Makes sense why you dodge the discord talking point alot actually. Damn we making progress here.

@Bepples-barthilas

including videos that were intended as guides

Lol why would I make a guide to something I only just started experiencing? I never played Vanilla, I hardly raided. I farmed DME and did pvp. Its satire homie. Ever notice when I made a “guide” I never really showed it in actual combat or while raiding? Do you want me to get you a fidget spinner?

@Bepples-barthilas

You can keep pretending it was a joke or whatever or keep arguing that somehow this isn’t relevant because the video was from Classic

I still love whenever we refer to Current versions of the spec or when you backtrack to when it was ranged in WoD you still use a classic wow video to make a point of the spec 17 years before what it is now as some kind of argument. Its like me saying remember when you drank milk from a bottle but now you drink liquor? EXPLAIN YOURSELF.

@Bepples-barthilas

From now on I’ll only push this particular point and I won’t respond to anything else you post.

F for doubt. You cant help yourself and will slip up soon enough.

@Bepples-barthilas

There are 4x as many BM Hunters in 1800+ in 2s and 5x as many in 3s.

This isnt even what I said. I said I kill them and you took the numbers from pvp content I didnt even said I took part in. All over the place bruh. You are a mess man.

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Toxiktraktør-tichondrius

Lol why would I make a guide to something I only just started experiencing? I never played Vanilla, I hardly raided. I farmed DME and did pvp. Its satire homie. Ever notice when I made a “guide” I never really showed it in actual combat or while raiding? Do you want me to get you a fidget spinner?

So you really are just going to double down on all of your content before 2021 being one big satirical meme, huh? Including such no-combat satirical masterpieces as “Survival Hunter Rotation (Classic WoW)”?

You have to know how this doesn’t land well.

Griefs
Heretodie
Furvival
Maltyrius
Columbo
Kalahane
Rhande
Velyro
Drthstinky

You guys have all liked his posts before. What do you think? When he spent months making videos demonstrating SV in classic and talking about how it was not a melee spec, apparently that was all just hilarious satire. Did you find any of the below videos to be funny comedy?

• I will be showing you how [Survival] is actually NOT a melee spec
• Survival was never about being a melee spec. It was all pretty much getting the hell out of there.
• As I’ve said before, this is not an actual melee spec. A lot of people want to believe that it is it is but it is not.
• You’re not necessarily a melee spec. I don’t care what anybody says. You’re still a ranged spec. You’re always going to be a ranged spec playing a Hunter.

[Darthstinky-kelthuzad]

Imagine making a thread inquiring about a spec and all you get is people spamming their own cringe little rework ideas and an irl Ogre forever screaming and crying because he doesn’t like something.

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

@Bepples-barthilas

So you really are just going to double down on all of your content before 2021 being one big satirical meme, huh?

Its literally in my channels description I think. Again you dont seem to pay attention to the kinds of videos iv uploaded. You jumped the wagon too early and ran with it.

@Bepples-barthilas

You guys have all liked his posts before. What do you think? When he spent months making videos demonstrating SV in classic and talking about how it was not a melee spec, apparently that was all just hilarious satire. Did you find any of the below videos to be funny comedy?

Dang you are so mad. I mean, Like I said I have been messing with you for like half a year. I think you finally came off that high a little and realized what you been fighting this entire time despite the fact I must of said it a million times. Cry more bruh, you keep embarrassing yourself daily.

@Darthstinky-kelthuzad

magine making a thread inquiring about a spec and all you get is people spamming their own cringe little rework ideas and an irl Ogre forever screaming and crying because he doesn’t like something.

I love you

[Rhande-area-52]

Mental gymnastics is still complaining like a child about something that happened six years ago.

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

Cant wait for the 15th WoW expansion, Bepples will complain that they removed arcane shot, ya know that one spell you dont typically use and it somehow caused billions of players to leave the class for A new ranged rogue spec

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

Seriously, can you please stop going out of your way to attack Bepples?

I’ve seen multiple posters attack Bepples in unrelated threads that he haven’t posted in, and then act shocked when Bepples defends himself.

In this case, Bepples haven’t posted for over a day. He’s obviously done with the conversation and yet here you are — with other posters — continually attacking him.

I won’t lie and say that Bepples has nothing to do with the atmosphere of the Hunter forum. However, he is but one small factor.

Over the past few weeks, I’ve watched at least six different posters pile onto Bepples and started drama in UNRELATED threads that Bepples HAVEN’T posted in.

You absolutely contribute to this. Own up to it, and stop doing this!

And that’s my last word on this.

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

@Watermist-skywall

Seriously, can you please stop going out of your way to attack Bepples?

Why? Hes went out of his way to do it to me for 6 months.

@Watermist-skywall

I’ve seen multiple posters attack Bepples in unrelated threads

Probably because he deserves it

@Watermist-skywall

In this case, Bepples haven’t posted for over a day. He’s obviously done with the conversation and yet here you are — with other posters — continually attacking him.

Read above

@Watermist-skywall

However, he is but one small factor.

He thinks he speaks for everyone

@Watermist-skywall

Over the past few weeks, I’ve watched at least six different posters pile onto Bepples and started drama in UNRELATED threads that Bepples HAVEN’T posted in.

He did it to himself being obnoxious and condescending to others for liking something he doesnt.

@Watermist-skywall

You absolutely contribute to this. Own up to it, and stop doing this!

Very childish response from me, but he started it and fled when he couldnt take the heat.

@Watermist-skywall

And that’s my last word on this.

It wont be

[Griefs-zuljin]

Y’all should just put each other on ignore

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

Nah. Thats weak

[Bepples-barthilas]

Already had him on ignore at one point. He changed his toon around so I could again see his posts and then appeared to actually invest in an SV discussion, but since he’s now claiming all his posts are satire I’ll go back to ignoring him.

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

@Bepples-barthilas

He changed his toon around

Sounds like another mental gymnastic.

[Toxiktraktør-tichondrius]

@Bepples-barthilas

but since he’s now claiming all his posts are satire

Never said they weren’t. You twist language around to try and benefit you. Its manipulation mate.

[Rhande-area-52]

Spare us the feigned indignation. Bepples has attacked anyone who’s supported MSV over the last six years, and now you’re suddenly offended.

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Watermist-skywall

In this case, Bepples haven’t posted for over a day. He’s obviously done with the conversation and yet here you are — with other posters — continually attacking him.

Now now, he’s just expressing how much he doesn’t care about the discussion. By posting non-stop in 2 different threads and making videos on his channel about it