i think viewing the orcs even at that time as purely villains is really compressing downs a lot of the narrative into a way that’s pretty reductive to be honest. the story was a bit more complex than* warcraft i by the time of tides of darkness. at least, that’s my memory. of blood and honor precedes it in publication. i think trying to seriously justify turalyon’s behavior in an objective manner* is fair pretty much only if you simply disregard quite a lot of context for orcish corruption, which was certainly at least known to players as 3rd-person omniscient observers
Keep in mind that for most of the Second War, Turalyon was struggling because he couldn’t wrap his head around why the Orcs would be so evil and corrupt precisely because he saw them as people. It wasn’t until Anduin Lothar was slain that he had his, “revelation,” that they couldn’t be anything of the sort. So, it came pretty late into the Second War, and is a mindset he’s long since cast aside.
The crazy thing is, once he came to the conclusion that the Orcs weren’t really, ‘people,’ the Light empowered him massively. Again, I’d point to this as an example of how the Light has always had zealotry and narrow-mindedness as a built-in risk. Unlike the Scarlets Turalyon somehow broke free of that mindset. Kind of impressive given he spent 1,000 years with Xe’ra, who pretty much embodies that aspect of the Light.
I didn’t like how my older post turned out. I had more to say, but between Wikis, WoD, the Novels, and Chronicles it was hard to keep everything straight and parse out what was added when.
But the two main points were that while I think the Old Horde were villains, I didn’t mean it as objectively evil. A sympathetic villain can still make wrong or immoral choices. I understand Draenor was dying and Doomhammer did not entirely trust Gul’dan, but I don’t think it validates the Old Horde’s actions.
As for Turalyon the excerpt in the novel is really about corruption. He fears the consequences if that demonic nature were to spread to Azeroth. I think people can caught up in the “alien” thing, but it is more alien by nature than alien by a literal definition.
I’m trying to sort out the rest though, cause some of the sources paint different pictures of what happened.
hey, i getchu; i mean to be super honest i think a lot of the sympathy the orcs should have to help characterize them in the way that’s actually interesting and subversive for the setting is hamstrung by the fact that metzen is sort of a b-tier writer and really is just good at putting his own cool spin on tropes, and a big trope in fantasy is that orcs are big, brawny, and brutal, so they make for natural villains cuz u rly don’t have to give them a ton of characterization beyond some variation of an archetypal evil. like, to be clear, orgrim was a bit of a d/ck
Funnily enough, it was Orgrim that made the whole thing so confusing.
In Tides of Darkness, he appears to be more of a warmonger and speaks as if he still intends to conquer Azeroth (despite Gul’dan’s treachery). After killing Lothar, he explicitly threatens Turaylon and tells him that all will fall to the Horde and they will claim this land as their own.
This sentiment is what sparks Turaylon’s faith in the Light. He despises the warlike nature of Orcs like Orgrim. In this instance, it is more cut and dry as to why Turaylon would feel so strongly. His desire was to make sure his home does not fall to demonic corruption.
However, other sources like the wiki make Orgrim appear more pragmatic in his justification for ongoing war. In this case he prolongs war because he feels humanity will never give them peace after the destruction of Stormwind.
I also wonder if later lore expanded upon Orgrim’s opposition to Gul’Dan. If you were to go by some of Orgim’s quotes in the novel, it would appear the Horde is just under “new management”.
In retrospect, the additional nuance makes Turaylon’s motivation more confusing because it changes the context of what he was responding to. I think if Orgrim can get that expanded context, then so too should Turaylon.
Just as I imagine since the people doing the converting survived a genocide attempt from those they’re trying to convert now, they might be less inclined to mercy or gentleness.
Or they could just do the smart thing and stay on their side of world, but now its canon that they started the conflict so they get to be in the wrong and be awful religous zealots
Kinda happy that blizz put the Lightbound as the ones in the wrong. Puts that debate to bed for now at least. Can’t blame the Mag’har anymore for the actions of a bunch of religious zealots
We only have the Mag’har’s side of what happened after we left AU Draenor. No one knows the actual cause of the planet’s slow decline. We never saw any orcs being Lightbound, so it’s entirely possible the Mag’har claiming Orcs were being lightbound against their will is just how they justify how their own kind could side with the Draenei, because they refuse to accept that the Draenei might have convinced them.
I’m not defending the AU Draenei, mind you. Whenever I see a comment along the lines of, “Well, this is what happened,” I throw out a warning that we don’t know what happened. We’ve only one side of the story, and with another side to be told, Blizzard can take it in any direction they want.
Yes, Yrel could absolutely be a tyrant using the Light to control people. COULD being the word. Now that certain bad actors are gone from the company, however, and given the poor handling of female characters in general, it’s questionable if that is the direction Blizzard would actually take. Even if the AU Draenei are doing what the Mag’har say, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn they too have been Lightbound and are acting against their own will or something.
I’ll just say that Chronicle says that when Yrel became High Exarch, she started demanding everyone on Draenor become Lightbound thinking it would slow Draenors death. The Lightbound blamed the Mag’har for Draenors problem and conflict broke out shortly after
So, whatever side people wanna take, chronicles does put the blame solely on the Lightbound
Chronicle volume 4 supports this. Argus was only the Titan of Death because the dreadlords were pumping him full of Death magic. “During the Nathrezim’s occupation of Argus, the Nathrezim infused the planet’s Worldsoul with powerful Death magic, until the slumbering Titan awoke as Argus the Unmaker.” Page 211
I’d heard the Chronicles had gone to some lengths to suggest World Souls can become something other than Titans, but here we have Argus, with no Titan involvement, being used to create massive amounts of Fel, and pumped full of Death magic, and ending up a Titan.
Chronicle kind of words it such that they still become Titans just Order Titans is no longer the default phase for them. A world soul becomes a titan of whatever cosmic force gets its hands on it first.
Like we been speculating with Azeroth for a while now
Ah, I see. That makes sense then. Eonar is a Titan, but definitely more of a Life Titan.
I wonder if Azeroth will become the Light Titan? I know there’s one in Hearthstone, but that’s non-canon. It would explain the gold and blue color to Azerite.
Eonar is an Order Titan, otherwise Aman’thul wouldn’t let her in the Pantheon. It’s just that Life has some sway over her too. Probably because Life almost took control of her World Soul before the Pantheon showed up.
Azeroth will be equally infused with all 6 forces and be the Titan of the 7th force, which is created from balancing the 6 forces. The Titan facilities are there to infuse her with Order, Sargaras’s sword infuses her with Chaos, Icecrown Citadel infuses her with Death, Elun’ahir infuses her with Life, the Hallowfall crystal infuses her with Light, and the Old Gods infuse her with Void
I feel this is the way to do it. So World Souls are still titans but you can inject another force that becomes their main identity. Like how Eonar is a Titan but is closer to Life. Khaz’goroth is a Titan but is closer to the elements of Earth and Fire. Likewise with Golganneth with air and water. Aggramar might be closer to light (although this is purely going from Tyr). Argus with death (although this one was forced). Aman’thul and Norgannon are just pure Titans. idk what Sargeras was before his fel bath.
Do we have anything to suggest that is would be the case? I mean we do have that book found in the Emerald Dream where Aman’thul got butthurt over Eonar planting a tree but that is designed to be from an unreliable narrator so it might not be true. Given that it seemed that was an alternative take on how either Un’goro Crater or Sholazar Basin were formed.
The book being https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Legend_of_Elun%27Ahir but it is important to note that it does say
“As is common with ancient myths, details of this tale are oft disputed”.