That is post-Xe’ra and Chronicles, where the lines are blurred more.
But, a new generation always starts wielding the light. They just end wielding something else was my point.
no wonder varodoc likes the light so much
I dunno, the first paladins were pretty zealous, weren’t they?
I’d say they weren’t like the Scarlets though. Compassion, sacrifice, and justice were/are core values for the Silver Hand. DF’s Tyr questline also reiterates this.
wcii had the paladins culling peasants. and the scarlet crusade didn’t just spring out of nowhere. its members writ large used to be members of the silver hand. turalyon was so horribly xenophobic towards the orcs that his hatred of them fueled his holy magic. the light doesn’t give a rat’s @$$ about what’s right. it only cares that whoever’s calling upon it believes that what they’re doing is right
Do you have more context about the WCII peasant culling? I’m not as well-versed in WCI or II.
As for the Scarlets, every faction has their more militant side. Just because Paladins should be upholding virtue doesn’t mean all do; hence the whole fallen thing. My point was the core foundation rested on those moral principles.
Uther wrote “these traits must be tempered, with prayer and meditation. Only a calm mind will provide clear actions; only a peaceful heart may be truly infused with the Light”. That doesn’t strike me as a Zealot.
I know Turaylon had that internal dialogue about the orcs, but the only Orcs he encountered at that time were fel-fueled killing machines. In a world where demons and other malevolent beings exist and actively try to kill you, I can see why he would have that conflict.
I think it would reflect poorly on Turalyon and the Light if he had met orcs like Thrall and cast judgement (literally and figuratively).
unfortunately there isn’t a ton of context for the silver hand killing peasants. it’s a one-off mission in wcii in which the player controls silver hand knights culling a peasant revolt. i bring it up not as a demonstration of their zealotry, but rather to indicate that the silver hand has, even early in its history, set aside notions like compassion when engaged in fighting.
as for turalyon, it’s worth noting that in a very obvious way he serves as a foil to tirion, who encountered even one peaceable orc and reevaluated his thinking about them. both knights are victims of circumstance, but each is operating on their own internal moral system as opposed to some objective fact of the matter. and this internal system is precisely what’s being called into question when we wonder about something like zeal—such a thing is precisely why the light is so inclined towards narrowness of thought and conscience. lemme put it this way: of all the magics in the cosmos, the light is the only one so far which has found potency in racial hatred
brief edit: i think probably your observation about extremists being given over to darker powers is an apt one in the context of older lore, but this phenomenon works concurrently with the light’s power, it doesn’t replace it. a willingness to embrace whatever means to further one’s ends doesn’t preclude at least some of those means from being fueled by the fervor of self-righteousness
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I was going to point out Sargeras, then I remembered Zovaal lol
Here’s what the Wiki has on it.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Tyr%27s_Hand#Second_War
During the Second War, troubles arose in Tyr's Hand when the local peasant population fell into a state of minor revolt. The Alliance was forced to fight the rebellious peasants. Eventually, the uprising was quelled and the Knights of the Silver Hand were summoned to watch over the populace.[6] It was later discovered that the rebellion was started by Alterac spies in hopes of concealing the orcish mining facility located in the region.[7]
Even assuming the Paladins didn’t directly take part in the conflict as the wiki implies, they were still sent to make sure another uprising didn’t happen. I recall in the actual game you were able to build Paladin units, but this was WC2, so you very rarely had named hero units, thus its difficult to nail down an exact presence.
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That is alright. It is an interesting anecdote. I am going to headcanon they would be the precursor to the Crusade. I don’t think it changes much of what the Silver Hand represents, more that mortals are fallible. I’m sure that’s the reason Paladin’s swear an oath to begin with- to try and strive to be better.
I think the Light working with the Scarlets as they stray is a matter of perspective. If the Light represents hope and compassion, then maybe it remains with the individual in the hope that they still have a chance to repent and change.
In most instances, it would be a gradual fall from grace. The Light gives one opportunities to remain true until they cross a threshold.
It is like what happened to Arthas. Following his arrogance and pride, under the manipulation of a Dreadlord, Arthas reached a crux that causes him to forsake his oath.
As for Tirion and Turaylon, you are absolutely spot on that they are victims of circumstance. But, I don’t think either of them were necessarily wrong. There isn’t just one right option or opinion. I think multiple viewpoints can be correct while also not being so subjective that they are evil.
For Turaylon, he was operating at a time when the Orcs were corrupted and possessed. They were filled with rage and literal chaos energy. Him having a “narrower” view makes complete sense in context. The Orcs were behaving no different than demons. I don’t think that constitutes the Light condoning racial hatred. The blood lust did not make them innocent.
If I am remembering right, wasn’t Eitrigg and Tirion after Grom’s sacrifice? Not to mention years had passed from the first drinking of Mannoroth’s blood. At the very least, the initial rage had subsided. While I could understand Tirion’s apprehension, the orcs were not the same orcs from the previous wars. I think that discernment is what led to the different outcome.
If for some reason Turaylon remained on Azeroth and was still empowered by his hatred of the orcs after meeting Thrall and helping him save Mt. Hyjal, then I would say the Light finds potency in hatred.
But as you mentioned, this is all old lore.
With Modern Wow lore everything I said starts to break down. The Lightbound, with the context we have, are a good example of the Light embracing racial hatred. Which is really disheartening.
Not really?
It’s implied the Lightbound were Orcs whom willingly sided with the Draenei believing the Light was the best way to save the world. Garrosh’s AU son joined them willingly, for example. What the Lightbound represent is the aspect of the Light that forces unity.
As I said before, every cosmic force has it’s benefits and drawbacks, and we often see these through it’s actors. A’dal is a benevolent and tolerant Naaru, while Xe’ra is militant and zealous. A’dal accepts all paths and powers in Shattrath, even welcoming demons as refugees, whereas Xe’ra believes only the Light is the true path and all must be made to walk it, whether they will it or no.
Xe’ra, the Lightbound, the new Arathi Empire, etc… aren’t anything new. The Scarlet Crusade always showed us the less palatable side of the Light. It’s not new lore, it’s not a change to the lore. Inspiration for the Light from WC3 onwards was drawn from Star War’s Jedi and the Force, with Paladins such as Uther and Tirion being the analogous Jedi, and those like the Scarlets being more akin to the Sith. They both draw from the same power, the Force.
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Yeah, that was my mistake. I was thinking close-minded, but like you said racial hatred isn’t the best way to phrase it. I really mean the Light as an authoritarian force.
And Im not sure, I still think it is a huge change. As before those that used the Light for hatred became prey for darker forces. Now, factions like the Lightbound seemingly use the Light for misdeeds without repercussion. That is the biggest difference.
Im not the biggest Star Wars expert, but the Force would be the Light and Void together. The Force is the underpinning of all life in Star Wars just as the Light and Void are tied together to creation. Isnt the Light Side positivity and temperance while the Dark Side is negativity and passion? At least initially, they were sort of a good and evil parallel too.
Don’t forget some of the lightbound were also forced to join by the sword, showing that the light does not care if you force others or not
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I suppose that this depends on your definition of corruption. The Light typically spreads through faith or acts of faith. Belief is a major component to the Light and its followers. If you define corruption as something that spreads through ideas, then I would say that yes, the Light is more corruptible than the Void. If you define corruption as an infection or disease than no I would say that Light is not as corruptible as the Void because that is not the primary way the Light’s influence and power are expressed. While the Void also has a spiritual component to it the Void acts more like a disease or infection in how it spreads.
In my opinion, no the Light is not more inherently corruptible than the Void because the Light generally spreads its influence and power through belief and faith rather than like a disease or infection. There are exceptions to this, and it is less of a rule and more a general statement, but the Light primarily acts more as an ideology and/or religion than anything else. One that is, again generally, helpful and benevolent towards others. Its followers are another matter with many of them becoming fanatical and using the Light as a means to an end based on their wants or interpretations.
yes, ty. i mean honestly i’m not trying to claim much by this statement, only to mention that the silver hand was beholden at one point to some degree of politics, so they clearly didn’t have their ability to wield the light be greatly impeded by erring away from purity of compassion, justice, etc. et al.
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i think i see what you’re saying, but i guess my point is precisely in this objection you raise: turalyon didn’t know that the orcs were, like, people, and so the light wasn’t diminished in him because his resolve was just so mighty. but this is just demonstrates why the light doesn’t care about what’s right, it just cares that you care. at the same time as turalyon got his power from a burning hatred for the orcs and belief in their extinction, tirion’s ability to overcome excommunication from the church came from the degree of his empathy for eitrigg. but the former case accounts for how the light doesn’t merely work on premises of graciousness and goodwill, but rather, on zeal and zeal alone. neither knight lacked for conviction of belief. and this is also what accounts for how the scarlets, even in undeath, were able to maintain such a profound connection to the light: because they are fanatics
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honestly i absolutely adore a’dal as a representation of the benevolence of light: on multiple occasions in shattrath, it forces its thoughts onto the masses of the city, but always in a way to assuage and sooth. i think that’s a pretty excellent case in point for, pardon the pun, the impressiveness of what the light does
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Agreed. I would be pretty okay learning A’dal is a counterpart to Xe’ra, a, ‘Light Father,’ or such. As Xe’ra embodies a more militant aspect of the Light (the way the Primus embodies the militant aspect of Death), A’dal embodies a more nurturing aspect of the Light (the way the Winter Queen embodies a nurturing aspect of Death). That certainly feels like it would elevate A’dal above what he is right now, but again, that’s the sort of retcon I don’t think I’d mind seeing. It doesn’t detract from the setting, it explains his power and also, perhaps, why he and his Naaru were at odds with Xe’ra’s agenda.
Lest we forget, A’dal and the Shattar were very much focused on ending Illidan’s reign of terror. They didn’t seem to believe he was instrumental in the ultimate defeat of the Legion. If different Naaru represent different aspects of the Light, and thus have different agendas, that helps explain things.
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I see what you mean, and I think it is perspective. Id say the Light did not dimmish because Turyalon’s observation wasn’t wrong. The Orcs were under the blood curse. The Orcs came in as violent invaders brought on by the Burning Legion and enacted their will. They were the villains. And because of that, I think it is hard to parse that the Light was rewarding zeal and zeal alone.
In Tirion’s case, he was supposedly stripped of his power. Yet the Light came to him when needed. I think this too shows that it is more than just faith. If he believed he had been disconnected from the Light, then why would the Light return? I think his compassion to save Eitrigg alongside his faith is what brought the Light back. I don’t have the novel, but isn’t it implied the Light never left him? If so, it would mean the Light stayed with Tirion through his doubt.
Are you referring to the cata/mop revamp where they are undead? I don’t remember them using a ton of Light abilities. Even then, there is a lot of poetic justice with the Scarlets.
They often become what they hate. And if Undead and still using the Light, then they must be in intense pain (pre-Calia lore stuff). While it would depend on the actions of the individual, one could view that as a punishment, atonement, or serving some grander trial. Plus, like I mentioned earlier, I think the Light gives one time to return.
When resurrected as DK, Whiteman talks about the guilt and pain she carried. Guilt also being a motivating factor for her whole character. A Scarlet trapped in undeath would leave much reflection for the bit of humanity they have left.
According to the highly biased Geya’rah, who seems to have a blind spot on the Iron Horde and the Mag’har’s own subjugation of the Ogres. Not to mention the toxic devs behind that nonsense story arc no longer work for Blizzard.