Except LFR was being released one week after normal from the start, and Brewa never did link a blue post like certain people want the other side to come out and post. Curious, that isn’t it Orc? :3
Further, normal/heroic bosses are generally cleared first week by quite a few people and you will find pugs in group finder that want AOTC just that quickly.
https:// en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
(remove the spaces before en and org to make the link work)
Specifically, " When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a [claim] that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo ."
Thank you. Your excerpts completely substantiate everything we’ve been saying about why the delay exists.
Since the developers make the decisions, not raiders, it is pretty clear that his ire should be directed at developers, not us. Evidence that we don’t make decisions can be found in the removal of Master Looter despite our protestations, the reduction in loot acquisition despite objections by many raiders, and the existence of LFR, which most of us thought was a terrible idea from the beginning.
Pretty much.
This isn’t a court, nor a debate room now is it? :3 We’re not talking about philosophy either, we’re talking about a video game.
Except currently, there’s plenty of raiders arguing that LFR shouldn’t be released at the same time. It actually, does substantiate the fact that raiders felt required to run LFR, back then what were heroic would be mythic now btw.
That was a result of top end raiders forcing trials to not get loot, as far as I recall. So again, it was because of the way the ‘top end raiders’ interacted with the game again.
No, it’s a forum for civil discourse about a video game. Any forum for intelligent discussion is governed by the philosophy of logical discourse, one piece of which is the Burden of Proof.
Sure, game developers did their job and looked at the way their player base was interacting with the game and made decisions to make sure the behavior was in line with their intentions.
Again, a game developer decision based on their independent analysis of player behavior.
So his ridiculous presumption that “evil raiders” are causing him to wait an entire week to start LFR and a couple months to finish it is garbage. Developers make decisions that they believe are in the best interest of the community as a whole. Some of them benefit solo players, casuals, and PUGs, and others benefit more hardcore raiders or M+ players. It’s an absurd victim complex causing him to claim that LFR players pay the bills and the tiny percentage of Mythic raiders are always the sole beneficiaries. Especially when LFR only players could be less than 5% of the subscriptions.
He doesn’t “pay the bills”, he’s not always a victim of evil raiders, and the raiders don’t get special treatment.
If you want to get technical, it’s a forum to provide feedback about the game nothing more. :3 That’s what blue posters, GMs, provide evidence for. You’re all about that, yes?
There’s no evidence to support your theory that any forum for ‘intelligent discussion’ is governed by the philosophy of logical discourse(or in your case, debate-bro tactics).
Yes, as a result of some players also feeling ‘burned out’ on raiding because of the multiple difficulties and by the time they got to say, normal or heroic end boss they would’ve killed it on LFR 3 times, etc.
Hmm, again you have no evidence to support this. 
Not really, see this thread.
You mean similar to the victim complex of ‘hardcore’ raiders not wanting anyone else to get gear anywhere close to the level of their own?
I mean in that case, normal/heroic/mythic could be 0.5% of the subscriptions.
They kinda do, given the lead dev in charge is a mythic raider and that’s how he even got hired despite having no history working with or on games.
I don’t know a top-end dev that got into their position simply for say, running LFR or doing casual content, on the other hand the opposite side is completely true that hardcore raiders can get hired with no real qualifications.
What? When did they do that? No seriously, when did “raiders” ever demand that LFR be delayed? I’ve been lurking on these forums for well over a decade and I don’t recall seeing anything like that aside from a vocal minority that in no way speak for the majority, let alone the blanket term “raiders”.
I’ve also seen the vocal minority call for mythic gear to drop from doing world quests. Would it be fair for me to complain that world quest players want mythic gear rewards? No? You should think about that before you go around making blanket statements. Just saying.
Okay…so you just want to be obtuse? I’m not going to play.
From the article you linked. Bashiok discussing their reasons. A developer.
No one in this thread makes decisions for Blizzard.
Random non sequitur? Besides which, I don’t see any evidence of what you’re claiming.
Well sure, except people in this thread have already dredged up achievement numbers that show 13% of subscriptions have AOTC, so then no. No it can’t be 0.5% for normal/heroic/mythic.
So we get special treatment like the removal of master loot? And reduced loot acquisition? That type of special treatment?
I mean, you’re the one not playing by your own standard. You didn’t even substantiate your claim you made right there, and then you even continued your post afterwards. Went back on your words so quickly.
They’re not currently a developer, for one, they also didn’t state their reasons for the changes were specifically that. Further, the article doesn’t link their entire quote and we won’t ever be able to see the full context.
They’re raiders, the ones trying to argue against it. Putting the feedback out there, to said developers who tend to take said feedback more from raiders than any other part of the playerbase.
Then you haven’t looked at any of the threads, look for a specific orc poster and you’ll know.
They haven’t, actually. Any data source they use would quickly be invalidated by a couple things. One, their sources are not directly from Blizzard and are from third parties. Two, there’s no way to track all subscriptions or we would have actually confirmable subscription numbers in the first place.
Again, no evidence to support this.
Like every patch giving new raids, which is technically more content than ‘casual’ or ‘solo’ players get anyways? The removal or reduction of power systems in zones because raiders didn’t want to touch them?
How classes are designed, and tuned entirely around raid performance and nothing else? How raiding got 4 difficulties, up from 1? How raiders keep getting hired at Blizzard? Yeah, special treatment.
Shadowlands has the most day 1 purchases out of all expansion so I guess dem raiders aren’t doing that bad a job.
Has more to do with digital pre-orders and their rewards more tha nanything else, whereas the original game and early iteration pre-orders were VERY simply to ensure you got it when you wanted it early on. :3 Nice try though.
So you deflect facts with hypothetics. Not worth my time.
Except I am. You asked for evidence that the burden of proof is on the claimant and I provided it.
You need substantiation for intelligent discussion being governed by the rules of discussion? Think about that for a moment and see if you can work it out. You’re either being deliberately difficult or you can’t understand things that are obvious status quo. Either way, this is the last time I’ll be engaging with you on this point.
Irrelevant. He was a developer when the decision was made so it’s insight into the developer decision making process.
That can be very logically inferred, especially from the second quote, regardless of any further context.
Decisions centered around raiding is a natural consequence of raiding being the most significant endgame content. It doesn’t mean that the developers are helpless lapdogs to the whims of raiders.
Okay, so it is a non sequitur to this thread then? Thanks.
And the posts I have seen don’t show any objection to people getting high level gear, they show objection to people getting heroic/mythic quality raid gear from picking things up off the ground, opening chests, and other content with zero challenge.
They have, actually. You can argue the evidence is invalid for whatever reason, but it is there, and has been provided by at least two posters independent of one another.
Lol, this doesn’t invalidate data. It doesn’t matter where the source is if it’s accurate.
This is a better objection, but only by a little. While there is no officially precise count without Blizzard releasing their internal information, fairly accurate approximations can be made by going finding achievement information that is publicly available. Looking at recent achievements that are simple and common enough that nearly every active account will acquire them can give a general count of the number of active accounts, after subtracting out obvious alts using pets and feat of strength dates. Is it going to provide the exact number? No. Will it be close enough to generalize an approximation of the percent of active subs have completed AOTC in SoD? Absolutely.
Again, you’re wrong. Evidence has been provided, and I’ve just explained why that evidence is more than sufficient to demonstrate that the percentage of normal/heroic/mythic raiders is definitely not 0.5%.
That is the game, not special treatment to raiders. It’s like saying car companies give special treatment to drivers by releasing new models of cars every year. That is their product ffs.
Your whataboutism doesn’t address the point that I’m making that not everything goes the way raiders want it to go. The fact that there are several issues where the developers don’t do what raiders want is more than enough to debunk the idea of special treatment.
I understand the idea of the compromise, but it shouldn’t even be needed. I don’t think one group of players should be compromising with another when they both pay for content. Both parties should be getting their product at the same time, at the same pace.
The lack of self control over min-maxing shouldn’t be keeping an entire group of players waiting to play their level of raid. It’s absurd.
It’s not the only reason the delay was put in place, otherwise it would have been removed in BFA. Determination means that eventually you WILL defeat every bosses, no matter how hard it is. Keep all mechanics and remove determination, sure, remove the delay then. I would love to see the reactions of the players. Moreso when they say that normal is more difficult than LFR (doubtful).
Unfortunately N’Zoth proved this false.
Determination caps at 10. I had MANY MANY groups for N’Zoth that wiped for 4+ hours at 10 stacks before I just got exhausted and left.
The exception to the rule.
Fully agree here, too often Blizz designs around those who lack self control, be it the min/max crowd that will go for every last little competitive advantage, to those that no life new content and complete it in a day, and I feel like it really hurts the game more than it helps. Blizz needs to realize, there will always be players like them and just let them do as they wish and they will either burn themselves out or learn self control and let the rest of the players enjoy the game as it should be, and make it fun and enjoyable for the majority.
For no reason, imo.
I used to mythic raid and I never met more toxic ppl in my life.
Everyone should be able to experience it at the same time - no matter what difficulty.
considering how long it took for the laaughable company to get the patch out due to them being lazy.
should be out now… lol time gating while they get money gw cheating company