Is it true that Night elf society is matriarchal

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

No, she didn’t. She never Commanded him to go against the Circle. Not Once!

By getting him to do so what she wanted that’s exactly what happened. She didn’t command but the book says she could have. It’s right there in the text.

At that point, Broll was already sidelined by Fandral because he wasn’t helping much and thought he could help more by helping Tyrande.

This isn’t true. He was never sidelined. I think your thinking about his reluctance to utilize the Idol of Remulos.

She never once commanded him to do anything to contradict the Circle.
The only thing that he did that went against the Circle, he did himself of his own volition.

She chose not to command but ask but the fact is that her conspired with her. Had Tyrande said nothing he probably would have gone along with the Circle.

Is that rhetorical?

No it’s not. I’d like an answer to that. You seem to think the Circle had the authority to do something to Tyrande and based on the lore, I’d like to know what.

After the Sundering, he was the commander for what remained of the Night Elf Army until he turned control over to Tyrande.

And then up and left for a few thousand years. He’s not even mentioned in the Satyr War so he wasn’t around that long.

Fact: He was given command of a regiment of Sentinals by none other then Tyrande herself. Shadris picked them, but Jarod commanded them.

I’m not disputing this. What I am disputing is the way you choose to present your arugment as if he commanded the Sentinels when in fact he only lead a security force comprised of Sentinels and that he outranked Shandris the one who actually commands the Sentinels.

Akyiss did.

Take that up with her please.

The Sentinel’s were first Recruited from members of the Sisterhood

That was the Wardens not the Sentinels. The lore is clear on the first Wardens being former priests.

Arguably, not all Sentinels are Priests but the current Sentinels got their start from recruits from the Sisterhood when Tyrande reformed them after disbanding the old army.

It probably more like the Sisterhood recruited and trained the army.

It does matter because until it’s established that Tyrande will ONLY pass leadership of the Kaldorei to a FEMALE member of the Sisterhood, it’s only hypothetical.

It’s really not. With the Sisterhood as the head of the government and the leadership being female for thousands of years prior to Tyrande this show a clear pattern. Unless the way the government rules changes this is the pattern that it will follow. The Kaldorei will be lead by the High Priestess.

I HAVE POSTED IT!
Amadis has posted it.

What he says is that the lore is unclear un what exactly happened as far as leadership. Chronicle implies one thing but it doesn’t make it definent. But even so you still said the Malfurion and his druids had equal power and that is just not true. Malfurion is a possibility but the druids were no more than students and were not a part if a leading or governing body and even they were apart of the Circle, they were often asleep.

OH MY GOD… I have never ONCE ever stated that. Are you so dishonest that you’ll try to misrepresent my words because you can’t argue against them?

Ma’am…

Only evidence we have of that is during the 7,000+ years in which Malfurion slept. While he was awake, They have been proven to do exactly that.

Maybe you should have been more clear because from my perspective it looks as if you’re saying Malfurion only slept during those 7000 years and awake the rest of the time. This is the only time in which you’ve referenced the timeframe in which Malfurion and the druids slept and that it’s the same time after the Highborne were exiled and by your own admission the time when the Sisterhood took full control; to which my point from the comic comes up.

And you also said

Malfurion still had the Authority to decide the Fate of the Highborne after awakening the first time.

And so my point from the comic once again comes up. They were already sleeping and waking up thousands of years prior.

You know know that the went BACK to sleep at least twice, right?

Malfurion was awakened from his sleep when the Highborne attacked.
Then he went back to sleep. He was Awakened again during the Third War.

They cycled in an out of sleep. It’s been more than twice, much more. In W3 Malfurion says that’s its been 1000 years since he’s seen Tyrande, that means he or probably all of them ,or just some,or just Malfurion, were awake at least 100 years before the War of the Shifting Sands. Speaking of which, Fandral lead that war along with an army of druids, priests, and Sentinels. And speaking of Fandral, 4500 years before the dark portal Frandal and the some of the druids planted the world trees to stop the spread of saronite. And lastly as you’ve stated, the Highborne incident. That’s at least 4 times they’ve been up awake.

But even prior to that, the Druids had been visited the Dream for Thousands of years in a cycle of and I have never denied that they hadn’t.

But you didn’t didn’t admit it either nor were you clear about that until just now. Also would advise you to be more clear about your points or better yet remember what you wrote before calling someone else dishonest. My response to the time frame is becuase of what you previously stated.

No. That is Literally the Lore because that’s what happened. Just because it doesn’t agree with your interpretation does not mean it’s not the lore.

I’ve proven time and again that your intrepetation of the lore is either off or wrong.

After the War of the Ancients and immediately following the sundering, Malfurion and Tyrande both led their people in rebuilding their society. If you want to get technical, neither one was a “political” leader in the sense that there was no established government at that time and wouldn’t be for some time after Malfurion and the Druids went to sleep.

On this however I will say that the lore needs to be more clarified. Both figures had great influence. But the only formal and influential organization to survive was the sisterhood to which the army and the society outside of druidism was built around. Malfurion spent a lot of time alseep and so to go back my original point

It’s why i say that the Kaldorei weren’t always a matriarchy but event became that way over time due to the druids being gone and the only leading institution left was primarily female.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

But it’s NOT a “female system of Government” and that doesn’t make it a matriachy even if it was. That would make it a gynarchy.

No, because it is a cultural and social view that women are truer to the mysteries of the Goddess than men… That is a social and culture superiority that women have, making it a matriarchy and a gynarchy.

Way to Completely IGNORE Lore to read into it whatever you want to believe.

How am I ignoring lore when I am literally quoting it to you? lol

That little bit of history (as in archaic)

“Thus far” means that it is not history, it’s currently still a thing.

There are Men in the Sisterhood

No, there is not. There are male priests, and there are male Sentinels… the Sisterhood is explicitly said to be exclusively female. They may allow men to join, but the point is that no men have joined because of a social view that women are better…

This isn’t difficult to understand. It’s very cut and dry… and if you want to get ever more cut and dry, we have word from a Dev that the Kaldorei are a matriarchal society… So, you are canonically wrong.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

This isn’t difficult to understand. It’s very cut and dry… and if you want to get ever more cut and dry, we have word from a Dev that the Kaldorei are a matriarchal society… So, you are canonically wrong.

I’m not particurlarly confidant in the ability of a male game developer being able to cope with the idea of a strong woman presence and describing it correctly.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

It doesn’t matter, it’s the lore. Blizzard says all kind of things and do a bad job at depicting it. Doesn’t mean the explicit lore is not lore.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

By getting him to do so what she wanted that’s exactly what happened. She didn’t command but the book says she could have. It’s right there in the text.

But what was she threatening to order him to do?
Take her to the Emerald Dream to help her save Malfurion.
NEVER did she order or threaten him to do anything that would subvert the Circle.

This isn’t true. He was never sidelined. I think your thinking about his reluctance to utilize the Idol of Remulos.

He was being overcome by his Nightmares. Can’t remember if it was by Fandral or on his own, but he was completely shaky and about to lose it. That’s why Hamuul took him aside to try to get him to calm down.

She chose not to command but ask but the fact is that her conspired with her. Had Tyrande said nothing he probably would have gone along with the Circle.

She asked for his help. He was Reluctant because he wasn’t sure which was the right choice. But her order never actually went against the Circle’s plan because taking one Druid away wasn’t going to upset their plan at all.
Frankly, her “Threat” was completely pointless.

No it’s not. I’d like an answer to that. You seem to think the Circle had the authority to do something to Tyrande and based on the lore, I’d like to know what.

They’d bring Malfurion into it. Then she’d REALLY be in trouble. He’d take her own his knee and show her the true wrath of nature!

No seriously, all kinds of political fallout. Nothing serious, obviously but still straining ties between their organizations and driving the wedge between them ever so further apart.

And then up and left for a few thousand years. He’s not even mentioned in the Satyr War so he wasn’t around that long.

That’s because he returned Long AFTER the Satyr War. He returned during Wolfheart, which took place after Outland.

I’m not disputing this. What I am disputing is the way you choose to present your arugment as if he commanded the Sentinels when in fact he only lead a security force comprised of Sentinels and that he outranked Shandris the one who actually commands the Sentinels.

I was wrong to imply that he outranked Shandris. I was only getting across the point that he still held his rank, that prior to leaving for self-imposed exile, he was the Commander (General in all but name) of the entire Night Elf Army. Sure, he retired but he went out on top.

Take that up with her please.

I was. you started responding to my post to her.

That was the Wardens not the Sentinels. The lore is clear on the first Wardens being former priests.

Correction. The Wardens are the Elites of the Watchers, which were at first volunteers from the Priesthood. Warden is a Rank.

It probably more like the Sisterhood recruited and trained the army.

“From the ranks of the Sisterhood of Elune, she forged the Sentinels, whose duty it was to protect their newly-emergent society. Quickly cementing itself in this role, the Sentinels became the fledgling night elf nation’s primary agents and guardians.”

Both Organizations got their start from the Priesthood.

It’s really not. With the Sisterhood as the head of the government and the leadership being female for thousands of years prior to Tyrande this show a clear pattern. Unless the way the government rules changes this is the pattern that it will follow. The Kaldorei will be lead by the High Priestess.

There’s no such precedent to make that call.

What he says is that the lore is unclear un what exactly happened as far as leadership. Chronicle implies one thing but it doesn’t make it definent. But even so you still said the Malfurion and his druids had equal power and that is just not true. Malfurion is a possibility but the druids were no more than students and were not a part if a leading or governing body and even they were apart of the Circle, they were often asleep.

Ok, it’s more accurate to say that the “druids” did not have political power but there wasn’t a gender divide at that time. They lore says that Tyrande and Malfurion both led the Night Elves and the Druids had as much cultural significance as the Sisterhood, which hadn’t YET emerged in the power vacuum that was left behind. Remember, Tyrande didn’t do this until they began the Long Vigil.

Maybe you should have been more clear because from my perspective it looks as if you’re saying Malfurion only slept during those 7000 years and awake the rest of the time.

Only if you misread what I’ve wrote. Malfurion slept for thousands of year.
I never said not continuously! 7000 years of 10,000 years. Math! Not a hard concept.

Little Lore inconsistency about how long they were awake following the Sundering, but Malfurion didn’t make their deal Ysera to sleep for centuries (I’m guessing for sake of argument 1000 years even?) until after they make their way to Hyjal and Ashenvale and started rebuilding. It’s implied they started their first sleep shortly after that but who knows how long that is in Night Elf years. And I don’t believe there’s any lore to state how long they remain awake in between (barring times of calamity.)

And so my point from the comic once again comes up. They were already sleeping and waking up thousands of years prior.

Exactly. I meant “first time” in which they’re awoken from hibernation by any account of the Lore, which was during Dath’Remar’s attack.

They cycled in an out of sleep. It’s been more than twice, much more.

I said “At Least.” And I was referring to when they were awoken because they were needed at the time, not just because of their cycle.

But you didn’t didn’t admit it either nor were you clear about that until just now.

I really don’t need “admit” to anything if it’s to be assumed to be common knowledge. If I omit something, it’s safe to assume I do so out of need for brevity or because it wasn’t directly pertinent to the point (or the rare case it slipped my mind), not because I chose to ignore it. At no time in anything I’ve said did I imply that they did not so it’s obvious that I wasn’t arguing against it.

But the only formal and influential organization to survive was the sisterhood to which the army and the society outside of druidism was built around.

But the sisterhood didn’t raise to power (at least not governmental power) until a couple hundred (or Thousand, depending on which book you’re referencing) years later.

It’s why i say that the Kaldorei weren’t always a matriarchy but event became that way over time due to the druids being gone and the only leading institution left was primarily female.

I never argued that they WEREN’T Matriarchal for a great deal of their time. Just wasn’t always that way and not now as off recent lore. At least not entirely. The argument had more to do with WHY they were Matriarchal during that time and the reason why that’s slowly no longer the case.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

That is a social and culture superiority that women have

No, that literally just makes it a Gynarchy, If the Night Elves were truly ruled by a “female system of Government.”

But eitherway, you can argue that Tyrande Rules the Night Elves. You can’t argue that she rules BECAUSE she’s a Female.

That’s not enough to define it as a Matriarchy though.

How am I ignoring lore when I am literally quoting it to you? lol

Because I just Quoted it and you think your quote somehow nullifies mine, when they’re from the exact same book.

“Thus far” means that it is not history, it’s currently still a thing.

No. It means “Up until the publication of this article/book/story/etc…”
Something, once written, does no become truth forevermore.

If it were, That Means Fandral is still Leader of the Cenarion Circle because the same source lists him as such.

No, there is not.

"As a result, although a majority of Elune’s priests are still women, the Order now welcomes men into its ranks.”

Yes there is.

the Sisterhood is explicitly said to be exclusively female.

“was”

"As a result, although a majority of Elune’s priests are still women, the Order now welcomes men into its ranks.”

This isn’t difficult to understand. It’s very cut and dry

I agree. So why do you find it so difficult?

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

You can’t argue that she rules BECAUSE she’s a Female.

Yes I can, and I have… You are completely ignoring the fact that the Sisterhood of Elune is exclusively female because of a cultural and religious bias in favor of women… Tyrande IS in power because she is the most significant person of that order. A man could not be in her position given the cultural and social context.

That’s a matriarchy.

Because I just Quoted it and you think your quote somehow nullifies mine

No… I just don’t think your argument is valid when you cherry pick only the lore you want to believe while ignoring the rest of it.

Something, once written, does no become truth forevermore.

And we have zero evidence that anything is changed. Therefore, we have to accept the null. Unless you have evidence to suggest that has changed, which you don’t, your argument doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

"As a result, although a majority of Elune’s priests are still women, the Order now welcomes men into its ranks.”

Again, you are cherry picking. It WELCOMES men… But no men have joined BECAUSE OF A CULTURAL BIAS IN FAVOR FO WOMEN. That’s the context of the source, which you are ignoring.

“was”

No, not was.

“Has remained exclusively female thus far.”

Saying it welcomes men doesn’t mean any men have actually joined.

I agree. So why do you find it so difficult?

Lol, you’re the one cherry picking the lore because you can’t fathom the idea of women in power.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

“Has remained exclusively female thus far.”

Saying it welcomes men doesn’t mean any men have actually joined.

Stop by the Temple of Elune in Val’Sharah. There are male Priests there. And that temple predates the one in Darnassus by a few millennia.

When Jaina assembles her armies to attack Drazz’a’lor there are even Male Sentinels. (dressed in the same bikinis as their female counterparts)

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

Stop by the Temple of Elune in Val’Sharah. There are male Priests there. And that temple predates the one in Darnassus by a few millennia.

That doesn’t mean they are members of the Sisterhood. The Sisterhood is the highest echelon of the Priesthood. There are no named NPCs of prominence who are male Kaldorei Priests. I cant log in right now, but I don’t even recall seeing men at the Temple of Elune like you suggest.

When Jaina assembles her armies to attack Drazz’a’lor there are even Male Sentinels.

I never denied there are male Sentinels… There is a minority of them, but that’s not only a recent development, but the Sentinels are not a ruling caste, they are the military.

You are both missing the point. You point to men in the society and want to say “Look! See! There is your proof!” When that doesn’t do anything to dismiss the point that I am making.

My point is that the Ruling Caste of Priestesses are exclusively female because of a cultural and religious bias towards women.

Its a Matriarchy…

[Kastar-goldrinn]

That ruling caste that exists with the sisterhood of elune at the top became a thing after the war of the ancients right?

Before that, the sisterhood existed, but had no political power right?

With that in mind, Tyrande and the sisterhood had been in charge for those 10 thousand years, which means a matriarchal society, but, it has been just 1 government. We don’t know if the sisterhood would have that much weight if Tyrande suddenly died, it could have not. If it happens now, would night elves follow the next highest priestess? Would they follow malfurion? Would they follow Shandris? In the last 2 cases, would be because of their personal feats or their relation to Tyrande?

What is the faith in Elune like now after the burning of Teldrassil? Would the sisterhood be that powerful in the society if Tyrande died?

Night elf structure is matriarchal but it has been static for the last 10 thousand years in lore, we dont know how it will go from now on, that is the first real point where that structure is facing a real challenge, but this isnt saying it will change, it might not.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

I mean, Kaldorei matriarchy is rooted in the Faith of Elune. I think the argument that the Kaldorei Empire was matriarchal can be made but it’s way less clear. I think we can say the Kaldorei have been matriarchal for the last 10,000 years with 100% certainty… I don’t think we can say they were before that.

I am not sure why that matters so much, Governmental systems are not racial in-born, and neither is culture. That is developed over time. I think if Tyrande had died during the War of the Ancients, we might have seen something different. However, I think the likelihood that we would have seen something similar is likely, just because, even without Tyrande, most prominent people who were in the position and willing to take her place were also priestesses.

Also, moving forward… I think 10,000 years of a matriarchal society rooted in faith is a strong foundation. I do not think you are going to see that change anytime soon. I think what makes this so hard for people to understand is they see prominent men in the community being treated respectfully and think “Well, he is not being shamed for being a man, he doesn’t look oppressed, it can’t be a matriarchy.”

Which is just flawed logic. With faith being the central-most pillar of Kaldorei society, most Kaldorei men also most likely have the same bias in favor of women. The Sisterhood remains exclusively female probably more so that men are just not perusing it, rather than women denying them avenue. Because men have that same cultural belief, that only women can know the mysteries of the Goddess.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Here that plopping sound?

That’s the sound of moving goalposts.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

I am literally making the same arguments I have been making for weeks, but okay.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Every time I bring up an example that counters your thesis, you move to some other argument, so yeah.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

Or… now stay with me on this… Perhaps, your examples don’t actually counter my thesis?

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Actually they do… you argue for Matriarchy without a clear understanding of the word implies, when I point out multiple examples that would contradict them, such as Jarod Shadowsong, Fandral, Malfurion and others, you then backpedal an argument of absolute autocratic rule by Tyrande. When I point out male sentinels and priests, you retreat to lore claims that they don’t exist.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

you argue for Matriarchy without a clear understanding of the word implies

Siiiiigh

I have been very thorough with defining my terms.

I think it is safe to say that I have argued most passionately for Night Elf Matriarchy. I believe that was the original intention for the race, and I think Blizzard muddied the subject for the sake of gameplay, not all writers working on the same page, perhaps an unwillingness to really commit to the idea, and probably some level of misogamy, at least in the case of Richard Knaack.

First, I think it is important we define terms.

Matriarchy:
In a governing sense - a system of society or government ruled by a woman or women.

In a societal sense - a form of social organization in which descent and relationship are reckoned through the female line.

in a familial sense - the state of being an older, powerful woman in a family or group.

I think traditionally, all of these apply to Night Elf government, culture and society. Post-Sundering, Tyrande was the sole leader if the Kaldorei people, heading the female only Sisterhood of Elune and the Sentinels. With absolute authority as the mortal avatar of the Goddess Elune (Also a woman), along with every governing branch being restricted to women, it is clear that we can check off that Night Elves are matriarchal in a governing sense.

Now, people are no doubt going to bring up Malfurion as a co-ruler. So I want to bring up the familial sense of the term. Malfurion, as co-ruler, still does not head the Sisterhood or any other Governing branch. He head a neutral, druidic circle. While I think changing cultural norms are happening (Due to game mechanics rather than realism or world building), I still don’t think this is enough to say the governing state is none matriarchal. Tyrande had the leadership experience, and seen as a divine ruler by her subordinates. Malfurion has that respect as well, but reverence of Elune’s faithful is solely Tyrandes. According to the Warcraft Encyclopedia, it is a common belief that the deep mysteries of Elune can only be comprehended by women, which is a clear sign of a matriarchal societal and familial structure, and giving Tyrande clear cultural favoritism by the virtue of her gender.

Now, I think this matriarchal society was Blizzard’s original intention that they started to move away from for the sake of Game mechanics, and with some of Richard Knaack’s novels, and his horrendous portrayal of women in his novels. However, I think we can expect Nelf matriarchy to make it’s way back into the lore on a more explicit level. Firstly, because feminism is very popular in the mainstream right now. We can always trust corporate America to cash in on shallow, surface level girl power. Secondly, in his interview about The Terror of Darkshore, Terran Gregory mentioned “Matriarchal society”. I don’t think that is something that anyone would normally toss out there in casual conversation, and is more likely a term being tossed around by the writing team in regards to nelves.

Just saying there are successful men within the society doesn’t disprove matriarchy, the same way pointing out successful women in the United States doesn’t disprove patriarchy.

I have rebutted that time and time again, and you all just make the same arguments over and over again. I don’t get shouted down, I am not going to entertain a sexist argument.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

I am not going to entertain a sexist argument.

That’s an odd position to take since you constantly advocate one.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

I don’t advocate matriarchy, I say this fictional society is matriarchal… Which it is, explicitly. What is sexist is the idea that it couldn’t be just by the virtue that men are also present…

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I think we can say the Kaldorei have been matriarchal for the last 10,000 years with 100% certainty… I don’t think we can say they were before that.

At least 7,300 years any way. I don’t think we can say 10,000 with 100% certainty. The Warcraft Encyclopedia doesn’t make any year statements.

I think if Tyrande had died during the War of the Ancients, we might have seen something different. However, I think the likelihood that we would have seen something similar is likely, just because, even without Tyrande, most prominent people who were in the position and willing to take her place were also priestesses.

Or Cenarius and Malfurion and the Druids.