Something else to consider. Now that gender rolls are softening and we look to the druids there are many high ranking female druids who hold the position of archdruid, even though female night elves couldn’t even be druids until about 15-20 years ago and there are male druids who have been practicing for thousands of years.
Meanwhile there are zero high ranking male priests and the highest echelons of the Sisterhood of Elune is still exclusively female.
It seems that once gender roles were abolished at the government level the women had a much, much easier time transitioning to the male role than the reverse.
Well, she had access but she still needed a Druid’s guidance to find her way.
you know what. I’m not going to search their 300+ posts to quote myself.
If you’re not going to put in the work to actually READ, I’m not going to do the work for you.
By that reason, Broll had the same divine right from the same visions from his Goddess.
That’s telling…
Slip of the tongue?
It’s conjecture to infer that was her reasoning when their was nothing to imply that was even a concern in that situation.
You could conclude that she didn’t want to butt heads with him during such a important time. This is in the book.
But her Lover’s Life was on the Line and She was on a Mission from Elune.
That was no time to be Polite and Civil.
But she DID reveal to the Cenarion Circle about her Vision. She barged into the room to do it, Which was when Fandral dismissed her concerns and refused to help, insisting HIS plan was better (or did he say that later?). Eitherway, she did but the Druids seamed unconvinced.
YES! Why the Hell are you arguing with me when I said that.
The only thing she COULDN’T do was order him to act against the Cenarion Circle. Not without repercussions.
What exactly are you arguing here?
A Governing Body.
Jarod Shadowsong. Doesn’t matter if it was only for a single purpose. The fact is, he had full rank of Commander with full command over Sentinels (arguaby, over Shandris herself.) Of course, this was partly Tyrande’s doing of getting them together, so there’s that.
Lorewise, he still holds that rank and still leads Night Elven forces, Sentinals included.
To a lesser extent and subject to clearification, Latronicus Moonspear, who held the rank of 2nd in command to Shandris so, while Shandris was still in Charge, Latro still held command over other Sentinels at Feathermoon.
Whether or not he held an ACTUAL Rank or whether Shandris only trusted him enough to act on her behalf is up to blizzard to establish.
That was my point.
Only evidence we have of that is during the 7,000+ years in which Malfurion slept. While he was awake, They have been proven to do exactly that.
No, The Kaldorei is run by a Queen. She may not like the word but there it’s clearly more that sufficient evidence to support it.
That statement IS lore… and I have presented to you several examples of Tyrande extending her authority. NOTHING you have brought up contradicts this statement, nor contradicts Kaldorei Matriarchy.
Except she has total authority… because she is the SOLE RULER of the Kaldorei. There is no check or balance, she is it.
The Sisterhood of Elune is the highest echelon of the faith. Not all Priestesses are part of the Sisterhood. But they are at the top.
Proper noun, but it wouldn’t be completely inaccurate to use it generally. There are very, VERY few male priests.
Only men could be druids during the Long Vigil. It was part of the deal with Ysera since the night elves needed their warriors to maintain the safety of Ashenvale and their military core was all female.
We have some continuity issues. Some sources say only men could be druids. But if you look at the artwork for when the Cenarian Circle was formed, there are women present. We also have female Archdruids, so either women picked up druidism very quickly, or the trade has been less restricted than previously thought.
Off-hand I see this from the old WoW Encyclopedia articles.
Until the end of the Third War, all druids in the Cenarion Circle were men, and almost all were night elves. Women druids and druids from other races are not necessarily a recent development, but until the war, such druids were relatively rare and often had no affiliation with the Cenarion Circle.
As I said, a lot of mixed messages when it comes to druidism. I tend to avoid it when talking about Nelf Matriarchy for that reason. But, I think a case can be made in favor for Nelf matriarchy just on the implication that men are banned from joining Kaldorei institutions, but women are not.
And I think an argument from a point of conjecture could be made that the physical, mental and emotional differences between men and women irl do not apply to the Kaldorei.
Case in point, women being the typical Warrior and men being the typical druid, could imply that Kaldorei men have more the proclivity to nurture than Kaldorei women might. That might imply that men tend to adopt the stay-at-home roles of the society as well. After all, it’s not like there havnt been ANY Kaldorei children in the last 10,000 years, and women very clearly have dominated the military roles in that time.
I’ve gone through a lot of it and from what I’ve seen a lot of your points can’t be backed up.
She knew where it was. She told him to go to Bough Shadow in Ashenvale explicitly.
Mmhmm ok…
But did nothing until he spoke with Tyrande and only told Hamaul.
I didn’t write this, you did. Why is it in quoted your post as if it was me?
The definition of conjecture is inferring or forming a conclusion without sufficient information. That’s not what this is. If you read the book her fears about becoming or not becoming Azshara are clear, Azshara’s decisions as leader have an effect of Tyrande and how she leads. You just have to read, it’s right there.
I just read that passage, both before they went to Moonglade and the exchange there and that’s not exactly what happened. Tyrande told the druids at Teldrassil that Malfurion was dying (so yes she did tell them) Frandral didn’t believe her but she told them again and before Frandral could speak Broll asked what was it that they must do.
At Moonglade Frandal told the group of his plan and while Tyrande didn’t agree she didn’t question it. So while she did speak of her vision, Frandral never insisted his plan was better, he never refused to help, and the druids included Keeper Remulos were not unconvinced.
And yet as leader she could and did just as the book said she could.
From who?
Well you first said…
Which was like half right. The order wasn’t to let Tyrande come it was Shandris. To which I replied
Then you said…
To which I ultimately replied
That’s what I’m correcting you on.
Lets back track shall we.
Your response…
My response…
So if by your admission the Sisterhood opprates at the highest level of the society that make them as I said a governing body. And according to the lore they are the governing body for the Elves.
First, Jarod hadn’t been a commander for over 9k years before the sisterhood took control. There isn’t even any evidence that he fought in the Satyr War. Second, the only Sentinels he leads are the ones chosen for that security force. He does NOT lead that whole army nor does he out rank Shandris. This is once again something you’ve made up.
Agreed. Blizz needs to clarify that.
Your point fell flat becuase unlike the Uk crown leadership of the Sisterhood does pass to a female.
With the arcane ban only, but what else did they do beyond that and teaching druidism? And actually the Sisterhood has been in power for the whole 10,000 years. The Cenarion Circle did not exist until after the Satyr War, nearly 1000 years after the sundering, in an effort to combat the Worgen. The Sisterhood was the only only organization that survived the WotA and shaped the society. Malfurion alone (probably with Tyrande) instituted the ban and trained druids. Your whole case about the Cenarion Circle leading prior to the Long Vigil just blew up.
So now your giving out ranks and titles based on your opinions? Hmmm…ok.
“Once, all priests who served Elune were all night elf women. However, after the devastation of the Third War, traditional gender roles were discarded in favor of permitting night elves to choose the vocations they most desired. As a result, although a majority of Elune’s priests are still women, the Order now welcomes men into its ranks.”
Self-referencing sentence. The “Order” in question is referring to the Sisterhood, not any other other caste or sect or “priests in general.”
Says right there, the Order of the Sisterhood now allows Males.
Unless you want to argue against the The Warcraft Encyclopedia now.
Find her way IN the Dream, which canonically difficult to navigate by any except the most sufficient skilled or experienced.
“The Emerald Dream is a vast and ever-shifting dimension of spirits and nature magic that defies mortal perceptions of reality. Time and distance hold no meaning in this intangible realm, and a day on the physical world and feel like decades in the Dream”
Partly because he felt he was losing his mind. Tyrande only confirmed that his visions were real.
I was referencing how that Train of discussion came to start, which is the only reason the subject just brought up.
I never said you wrote it. It came up like that because I tried to multi-quote both of us and I didn’t fix it in the post.
But it doesn’t explain why Tyrande wouldn’t tell Shandris the truth if that was her reasoning.
Yes, I was misquoting the part where he refused to help (keep in mind, I do not have a hardcopy of the book in front of me so my memory is hazy) but Tyrande did infer that he wouldn’t (and she wasn’t wrong.) I suppose her mistake was not insisting that they listen (because, as you said, Remulos would of sided with her if she had) but she didn’t bring it up again, even after she said it pointblank to all the Druids in attendance. But her mentioning her visions the first time didn’t sway anyone except Broll (although only later.)
But she DIDN’T and she couldn’t.
She did not Order him to act against the Cenarion Circle and she said herself that she had no authority to do so.
But the point is moot because if she had, it would be going outside of her Authority.
From the Cenarion Circle.
It was referrenced that Shadris was suggested by Broll (or Did she volunteer?)
Again, sorry. Don’t have the book in front of me.
No, that’s literally the Lore.
And it doesn’t matter if the “only” Sentinels were part of that particular force, he still Outranked them. I mean, it’s not like he was some sort of Civilian Liason or Attache. He LED the Sentinels. Full Stop.
That alone invalidates the claim that no male holds a military position over one of the Sisterhood (which the Sentinels are.)
Not while it has led the Night Elves, it hasn’t.
God, You’re worse then Akyiss. You both read whatever you want and argue against your own Strawmen.
No, My case didn’t “Blow up” because my case was never about the Cenarion Circle leading. NEVER have I once said they did.
Malfurion =/= Cenarion Circle
Night Elf Druids =/= Cenarion Circle.
Malfurion and the Night Elf Druids that HE LED, during the rebuilding of Night Elf society, both had just as much power and influence during that time as Tyrande and the Sisterhood.
Not more. Not less. They were EQUALS.
THEN LATER, Malfurion and the other Druids started the Cenarion Circle. It was probably some time after this was when they started to withdraw from a more proactive participation in regular leadership and started focusing on a more globally protecting Nature and also because that was when they had to sleep.
They literally LEFT the Leadership to Tyrande.
And even despite that, Malfurion still had the Authority to decide the Fate of the Highborne after awakening the first time.
She did tell her. Tyrande told Shandris where she was going and why.
But that’s exactly what she did and the book said she did. She couldn’t stop the Circle it self from healing the tree but she clearly had the full authority to command him to do what she wanted even if it was contradictory to what the Circle wanted. That’s what happened.
And they had the power to do what?
It does matter becuase that way you’ve chosen to word this indicates that he is a commander of The Sentinels and that’s incorrect. He commands a group of Sentinels as a part of a security force. You further indicated the he out ranked Shandris! Come on! Context matters and you tried to pull a fast one with a lose interpretation of the lore. You’re making stuff up again.
I’ve also never stated that the males have zero power whatsoever. Sentinels are not the same thing as the Sisterhood. They are separate organizations and being a Sentinel does not make one a part of Sisterhood. Once again you’ve made something up.
It doesn’t matter. That’s the way that organization has been run for thousands of years prior and there is zero evidence that the sisterhood will change this especially since at its highest levels the organization is female.
You’ve mentioned the Circle more often than you have Malfurion so I spoke specifically about the Circle. You’re also the one that keeps making these points that aren’t supported by the lore.
YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SUPPORT THIS!!! No where in the lore does it say Malfurion and his students, because that’s really what they were as Malfurion isn’t called Shan’do for nothing, had any power to govern. Malfurion lead the druids and helped to pull the society away from arcane but by ALL accounts Tyrande is the leader. You keep saying that Malfurion was equal as in a coleader but you have yet to produce 1 single piece of the lore to back that up. Where as Tyrande has been started many times to be the sole leader.
Prove this point. But you can’t. They were already sleeping and exploring the dream prior to this. In the Curse of the Worgen comic issue 3 Malfurion decides to put the Worgen druids in the emerald dream under Daral’nir to keep then sedated. Fandal says “how do you know of such a tree Shan’do? In all my traveling of the dream I have yet to encounter it or hear whispers of its existence.” That statement right there destroys your notion that the druids didn’t start sleeping until after the Highborne were thrown out. The druids were already exoloring the dream. So they didn’t just up and leave Tyrande with leadership 7000 years ago she was always the leader and the druids were often gone from the beginning. So yes, your argument had been blown up for a second time.
To quote you this is all “conjecture”. No lore supports the fact that the druids didn’t sleep until just before the Highborne were exiled. Malfurion as Archdruid had enough influence and power to throw them out but that does not dispute the fact that Tyrande was the leader. Being the Archdruid and war hero gave him some authority but the fact remains the as High Priestess, Tyrande was the ruler of the Kaldorei. She reorganized the society and the military with the Sisterhood at the society’s center, Malfurion had students. Nothing about that is equal. I’d argue that the arcane situation is different becuase of the damage that it caused and the fact the Malfurion lead the charge against future use this gave him done authority over the arcane issue.
Give it up already. Bring in the lore to support your statements or just bow out.
I suppose in a manner of speaking. A Theocratic dictatorship, perhaps. Though that can be disputable because the term dictator has a negative connotation to imply that they had seized power via force or acts in a tyrannical way.
But sure, we can say it is a dictatorship with a female leader, and a female system of Government, which makes it a matriarchy.
The same source also says this, for the 1 millionth time…
"Yet there is a widespread belief to this day that the deepest mysteries of the changeable moon goddess can only be comprehended by other women. The Sisterhood has therefore remained exclusively female thus far. "
You understand what that means? That means that because of a cultural bias of women, AGIANST MEN, the Sisterhood as remained exclusively female…
Good job, you have proved that the Kaldorei are both a Governmental and Cultural Matriarchy…
We’re losing track of the subject.
I was still referring to Tyrande talking to her about the Cenarion Circle and Akyiss giving that same reasoning as to why Tyrande (supposively) told Shandris why she wouldn’t stop Fandral.
Never mind.
No, she didn’t. She never Commanded him to go against the Circle. Not Once!
At that point, Broll was already sidelined by Fandral because he wasn’t helping much and thought he could help more by helping Tyrande. She never once commanded him to do anything to contradict the Circle.
The only thing that he did that went against the Circle, he did himself of his own volition.
Is that rhetorical?
FACT: He holds the Rank of Commander (Or Captain at the time). Nothing in Lore says he had ever lost that title. After the Sundering, he was the commander for what remained of the Night Elf Army until he turned control over to Tyrande.
Fact: He was given command of a regiment of Sentinals by none other then Tyrande herself. Shadris picked them, but Jarod commanded them.
(Also, depending on which source you want to go by, he’s still the acknowledged leader of a force of Night Elf Military that may or may not be the Watchers.)
And he’s still active in Darkshore, though his duties are probably back to being Administrative.
(I didn’t include his stint as commander on Mount Hyjal as he was technically working for the Guardians of Hyjal but still retained his rank of commander)
I’m not making that up.
Akyiss did.
The Sentinel’s were first Recruited from members of the Sisterhood. Arguably, not all Sentinels are Priests but the current Sentinels got their start from recruits from the Sisterhood when Tyrande reformed them after disbanding the old army.
It does matter because until it’s established that Tyrande will ONLY pass leadership of the Kaldorei to a FEMALE member of the Sisterhood, it’s only hypothetical. Obviously, she’s intending to pass it to Shandris but not because she’s a Female or a Priest but because she’s just the best choice.
I’ve only mentioned the Circle because it keeps getting brought up as (supposed) evidence, so obviously I have to address it.
I HAVE POSTED IT!
Amadis has posted it.
EVERY STORY about the Night Elves after the sundering refers to Malfurion AND Tyrande rebuilding together.
Literally, Tyrande never becomes “sole leader” until AFTER Malfurion and the Druids go to sleep during the Long Vigil.
On the otherhand, Nothing in the Lore says that that Tyrande was the sole Leader BEFORE then.
OH MY GOD… I have never ONCE ever stated that. Are you so dishonest that you’ll try to misrepresent my words because you can’t argue against them?
You know know that the went BACK to sleep at least twice, right?
Malfurion was awakened from his sleep when the Highborne attacked.
Then he went back to sleep. He was Awakened again during the Third War.
But even prior to that, the Druids had been visited the Dream for Thousands of years in a cycle of and I have never denied that they hadn’t.
No. That is Literally the Lore because that’s what happened. Just because it doesn’t agree with your interpretation does not mean it’s not the lore.
After the War of the Ancients and immediately following the sundering, Malfurion and Tyrande both led their people in rebuilding their society. If you want to get technical, neither one was a “political” leader in the sense that there was no established government at that time and wouldn’t be for some time after Malfurion and the Druids went to sleep.
But it’s NOT a “female system of Government” and that doesn’t make it a matriachy even if it was. That would make it a gynarchy.
Way to Completely IGNORE Lore to read into it whatever you want to believe.
That little bit of history (as in archaic) is cute and all but doesn’t change the fact that you are Canonically WRONG. There are Men in the Sisterhood (as are there are in the Sentinels and the Watchers as well.) It’s established lore.
So, as of right now, any Sister (or even you) who aren’t excepting of males in “your order” are just sexist bigots who are resisting the gender shift happening in Kaldorei Society.
