That’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about specifically only Warcraft III lore, the one you said has better storytelling than WoW, not what was added from WoW’s website.
But that’s not what I am talking about.
I like Warcraft 3… I think the game does better than WoW in ways related to story telling and world building… I think the biggest telltale sign of that is the fact that Blizzard has been trying and failing to emulate it in WoW for a long time. Nearly every expansion, it follows the same, but less comprehensive formula. Conflict, Redemption, Unity, rinse and repeat.
But I am talking about the game, and the lore that is evident within it. I never really bothered with the Game Manual lore because I was quite young at the time.
Understandable.
I did, though. But I was conditioned as such from the early Legend of Zelda manuals.
Fair, but that was still what I was talking about. And in Warcraft III lore, the Druids lead the Night Elves for a time after the Sundering. As described, I do not see the Warcraft Encyclopedia changing that. And if you do, I agree with you more here instead:
I mean, If that works for you, fine, but I think that’s pretty wrong. The Encyclopedia mentions the druids played no role in governing, nor any part in passing and enforcing law.
Which could make sense in that the Druids only just woke up towards the end of Warcraft III. They couldn’t lead if they were only just then reintegrating into society. But this was not the case from the time of the Sundering to Ysera getting the Druids to go into the Dream.
Sure, but I prefer Warcraft III’s lore, and as above, I don’t think you’re right.
I mean, Tyrande was the sole ruler of the Kaldorei for 10,000 years, when Druids have only been sleeping for roughly 7,000… Hell, Malfurion didn’t even start learning until post-sundering, and didn’t train new druids for some hundred years after…
But I am.
Edit: Come to think of it… Weird that Illidan was rejected by Cenarius, because according to the timeline, he should be imprisoned by the time Malfurion started training.
So honestly, who the hell knows.
That is the problem.
For example, taking everything into account, what makes sense is Tyrande and Malfurion jointly ruled for 2,700 years, then Tyrande ruled alone for 7,300 years because Malfurion and the Druids went into the Dream, and now Malfurion is awake again so Tyrande and Malfurion jointly rule together again.
Didn’t say he was. And you misread that post.
And I’m not arguing that she didn’t have ANY Authority, as a Night Elf. Just that that Authority ended where the Cenarion Circle’s began.
Yes and Tyrande was overstepping HER authority by going against Fandral as well. Otherwise, she wouldn’t of had to hold a Secret meeting with Broll behind Fandral’s back to do her idea instead. Otherwise, she could of just said “No. THIS is what we’re going to do instead” to Fandral’s face.
A. Canonically, they are.
B. Not only the Sisterhood hold power.
We’ve already covered this.
And your sources haven’t held up to Scrutiny.
Then perhaps the only continuity error here is that that one line, in which ALL Lore seams to disprove.
And Tyrande WAS overstepping her Authority in doing so.
Sorry. Misused word Soldier. He was a Warrior during the Third War, under Malfurion but Tyrande was still a Commander during that war and still his superior.
In seeds of Faith, Shadris referenced her conversion about it with Tyrande. Granted, we are not given the entire content of that conversion but she implied that both she and Quintis had both at least brought it to her attention, to which Tyrande had said the Cenarion Circle operated outside of her authority.
I said “for all we know,” not “We all know.”
That WAS a reasonable conclusion drawn by inferences.
I covered this but the point remains, His actions were his own betrayal, not by order of Tyrande. He sided with Tyrande because he thought her idea was better and defied Fandral by his own accord to save Malfurion. It was his choice. (unbeknownst to him, Tyrande had Hamuul’s blessing.)
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Not true. Malfurion started training under Cenarius in Val’sharah Long before the Sundering while he was still Loyal to Azshara.
Except Tyrande is said to be the Sole Ruler did 10,000 years. Unless Malfurion is a co ruler but takes a back-seat approach, which Terran Gregory could have been implying.
The most likely is that the Term Matriarchal is a term thrown around the writer’s room… but they don’t put much thought into what that means.
No, I read it correctly. It’s just not relevant.
Actually, most of the lore seems to disprove your perspective. You still refuse to come to me with anything concrete, and you write off explicit lore because it’s not what you want. I have been enjoying your tantrum thus far.
Again, we have some continuity errors. It’s possible he was learning to be a druid, but wasn’t capable enough to teach for hundreds, maybe thousands of years.
Still, Blizzard fuqed up the timeline it seems.
The Second most powerful leader of the Cenarion Circle giving Tyrande his blessing to carry out her plan is “not relevant?”
That’s ironic, coming from you, who has literally ignored page after page of lore proving you wrong yet you continue to read into it what ever fits your own headcanon.
We show you lore explicitly stating that the Druid made laws,
You come saying it was the Druids Collectively.
We show you Lore stating explicitly that the Highborne attacked the Night Elves Collectively,
You say is was the Druids only.
We show you Lore stating explicitly that Malfurion Banished the Highborne for their Attack,
You say the it was (somehow) Tyrande’s doing.
To you, Lore is Inconsequential and Mutable to fit whatever you want it to mean at any given minute.
He was the most powerful Druid at the time. The only reasonable conclusion is that it took them a hundred years or so of so to reach Mount Hyjal and get settled in before he continued his tutelage under Cenarius there until he became an Archdruid, which I suppose in when he started teaching himself.
Blizzard didn’t “fuqed” anything up. The Timelines are pretty consistent.
According to? She has every right as leader to command her people and fi what needs to be done to save Malfurion and Frandral couldn’t stop her.
And as leader of the Kaldorei she still is his superior. The lore said in mo uncertain terms that she could command him. How are you still debating this?
If that’s what it says it only proves the early point made that as an organization she has no power over them, but she clearly does over its individuals, as we saw with Broll. Frandal is probably the exception becuase he’s the interim leader of the Circle.
And still by helping her he went directly against Frandral in favor of Tyrande. Working against the leader of the Circle becuase the leader of the Night Elves sought his help. She very well could have commanded him (as stated in the book)but chose to be diplomatic.
WHAT! She didn’t even speak to him about the plan. She told only Broll and Shandris. I don’t believe Hamuul knew until later. Broll left Tyrande’s meeting, flew to Teldrassil with the others, stole the idol, and flew to meet Shandris. That’s why Hamuul was under suspicion freo3n the others after Broll and the Idol went missing. If you think Tyrande would even consider asking someone for their blessing to save Malfurion, least of all a non Kaldorei, you clearly dont know this character.
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No it’s not, because first, Hamuul is not one of her subjects. Second, Hamuul had nothing to do with Broll doing what Tyrande wanted. She ordered Broll directly. And he shut up and did as he was told immediately.
Dude, you have repeatedly ignored the lore I have given you. You come back with claims that are left without citation. Most or your argument is assumption and conjecture.
And you call me bias? How delusional are you?
Tyrande has been the sole leader of the Kaldorei for 10,000 years. That’s canon.
Druids have nothing to do with Governing the Kaldorei, making laws or enforcing laws. That’s canon.
Kaldorei of the Cenarian Circle are Tyrande’s subjects. That’s canon.
Men are not allowed to join the Sisterhood of Elune, that’s canon.
The Susterhood of Elune is an exclusively female group who commands the Sentinels, and advises Tyrande on matters of governance. That’s canon.
The Kaldorei are a matriarchal society. That’s canon.
All of those things I have explicitly proven with direct citations and quotes. The only counter you have is based on conjecture. Sit down.
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Then why do it in Secret?
The Emerald Dream WAS NOT IN HER DOMAIN.
So, yes her intrusion into the Dream WAS overstepping her Authority.
I’ve already said that she was his High Priestess. He says this much himself in the Book. It’s like if the Pope asks you a favor. That isn’t the issue, despite Akyiss’s attempt to derail the conversion. Of course she had authority over him.
But not Absolute Authority where the Cenarion Circle was concerned.
So, as a Druid of the Cenarion Circle, she did not have Authority over him.
Thank you!
Even if true, that means she didn’t want to impose her order on him, making him have to choose between his two loyalties, which is what I had said pages ago.
And the book indicated that he was going to help Malfurion anyway, Spurred by his Loyalty to Malfurion, But he was wanting to go alone. The “order” in question just to let her come with him, which is what his Objection was.
Didn’t mean to imply she “asked Permission” (not exactly anyway) only that Hamuul knew of their Meeting beforehand and kept the meeting secret from the rest of the Circle. I don’t remember how he knew but he did. I have to reread it.
EDIT: (Going back over it, he didn’t know that Broll was meeting with Tyrande, only that Broll was pursuing his own plan to save Malfurion.)
And that’s proof that you haven’t bothered to read what I wrote.
Except when she wasn’t. That’s Cannon.
Except when they have. That’s Canon.
Never argued they weren’t. But that doesn’t mean what you think it means.
Not any more.
Never argued that they weren’t.
Parsonarchy, that happens to have a Female Clergy.
By the Strickest definition of the word, they aren’t a True Matriarchy, which is what I have been arguing the whole time.
Even if you argue that Tyrande is the Sole Ruler of the Night Elves, that still doesn’t make it a Matriarchy because, while Tyrande might have total Authority over all Kaldorei (as High Priestess and ruler), WOMEN, not even the Sisterhood nor the Sentinels have unilateral command over all citizens, especially not over Males just by virtue of them being male.
To be diplomatic. She had already questioned Frandral’s plan due to Elune’s vision. She could have very well questioned him openly but chose not to. Plus Broll wad the only member thar she knew well and the one that Malfurion trusted the most. The book says this too.
Again, according to? Back this up. And technically speaking it’s not the Circles domain either, it’s Ysera’s.
I feel like you’re trying to backtrack on your point about Tyrande not having authority over Circle members.
She doesn’t have control over the organization or its actions but in this case I’d argue that she had divine right to do what she did thanks to Elune’s warning.
As intrem leader Frandal is probably the exception. No one else as we saw with Broll. But that’s only in Circle matters. If we are talking about the his actions outside of that, she has full authority.
It is.
No that’s what you assumed pages ago. Tyrande chose not to command him because she never wants to be like Azshara, forcing her people to follow her every command. It’s why she went the diplomatic route.
Yeah, with Frandral’s plan until he was told of Elune’s warning.
That’s not the order in question and it was Shandris that he didn’t want to come with him.
I reread it. Hamaul knew their was a meeting but not the contents of it. He had no idea.
That female clergy leads the society. As it currently stands their are male priests but none in the Sisterhood, and their never have been. The organization is female and its leader that the leads whole society is female. That position has been female for thousands of years. With the High Priestess position as the leader of the society and that position being only female it makes the Night Elves a matriarchy, a system of government run by a woman or women.
But as leader and matriarch Tyrande does. Their influence it’s an extention of her. Leadership of the Sisterhood and thereby the society passes from woman to woman. From Haidene to Kalo’thera to Dejhanna to Tyrande. The society became a matriarchy once the Sisterhood took over as the leader’s. Because of how the organization operates the Kaldorei became a matriarchy.
Can we not forget that the devs have also said the the Night Elves are a matriarchal society.
Warcraft Encyclopedia doesn’t state 10,000 years. It didn’t specify when after the Sundering she became sole ruler. Which could have taken the 2,700 years Warcraft III and Chronicle imply and state.
You’re missing the forest for the trees here. You keep trying to assert that she had authority while simultaneously conceding that she doesn’t.
Yes, Broll was obviously the best choice for so many reasons.
And I’ve already said that she had the right to put him on the spot.
For which Ysera put the Druid’s in charge of…
I mean, the reason she needed a Druid was because she had no access herself.
No. That’s you reading into my words what you want to see.
As Circle members, Tyrande doesn’t have Authority over them.
As Night Elves, she does. I’ve stated this time and time.
Don’t get into arguing divine right. That’s a whole other can of worms.
Safer to argue Moral Authority to cross lines.
Same reasoning Broll had for his visions, which he attributed to Azeroth Herself.
But the entire conversion started with Akyiss insisting that Tyrande had complete authority over all Night Elves (Flandral included), even where the Circle is concerned.
That’s actually conjecture.
I’ve stated many times that he sees her as his High Priestess and holds her in utmost esteem. And Yes, as the Ruler of his people, he’d help her regardless
That only means he was given another, better option. Didn’t change what he was doing. She gave him the opportunity that he didn’t know he was looking for.
Granted, he didn’t “Jump” at the chance. But he still wanted to help save Malfurion.
He wanted Shandris to go but Tyrande used that as a ruse to get him to take her instead.
Only at the HIGHEST Levels, which logistically is only Tyrande. The Rest of the Sisterhood are more like her Secretaries.
You still have Male Commanders in the Military, Civilian armed forces, and various government enterprises throughout society.
A Government run by a woman is not the Definition of a Matriarchy. If it was, the UK would be a Matriarchy because it’s currently run by a woman.
For a Monarchy to be defined as a Matriarchy, said Monarchy would have to pass from Mother to Daughter.
But a Key defining trait that makes a Matriarchy is that Males are denied ANY avenue of power. That just does not exist in Kaldorei Society.
Druids hold the same power in Kaldorei society as the Sisterhood. They Stand as Equals, likewise Males and Females stand as equals.
Insofar, The Night Elves under the Sisterhood has not been passed down from woman to woman. MAYBE if Shandris is appointed as next High Priestess, you MIGHT have a point.
A Society can have matriarchal tendencies without being an actual Matriarchy.
No this is you making stuff up with zero lore support. I’ve never said she didn’t have authority, except over Circles actions. They can opporate without her.
And yet pg 191 of Stormrage she was able to walking right through the portal without Broll doing anything.
You haven’t stated this time and again. You kept trying to argue that she couldn’t command Broll or anyone else merely because that were druids. Where as Akiyass and I have stated that while she has no authority over the Circles business she can still order around its members. You’ve also tried to state that Broll would have deferred to Frandral or get Hamaul’s blessing both of which have been disproven.
No need for an argument becuase that’s what happen. Had Tyrande voiced Elune’s vision even Remulos (her grandchild) would have sided with her.
I never said that. I believe that Frandral is the exception due to his role.
No it’s not. As leader Tyrande is always on guard about not becoming Azshara. The time she spent in Azshara’s dungeon affects her and it affects the way she leads. All of this is clearly covered in Stormrage.
But it was a clear divergence from the plan that the Circle leader had. He chose to go with her plan, a plan that she clearly had the ability to order him to do. Frandal may not have liked it but what could he actually do?
Yes he did. Broll agreed almost immediately.
Wrong and I have to say that anytime I’ve pulled directly from the book I’ve had it in my hand while writing. Broll wanted to go alone but Tyrande wasn’t having it. Broll tried to insist but Tyrande nearly commanded him. In fact both Akiyass and I have quoted this directly.
Which still makes them a governing body.
Can you name any? The military is female lead and while there are now males the higher ranking officers are female.
This is completely different. In that case Elizabeth and her sister were the only heirs. Had their been a male it would have gone to him. It may female lead currently but it won’t automatically pass to the next female. Also the UK isn’t run by a woman the Queen is head of state not great of government.
Or from female to female.
The males have no governing power. The authority is with the traditional all female Sisterhood. The circle has influence but none that extends into how the society is run or opporates.
And we’re back to this again. Who runs the day to day operations? Tyrande. Who controls the army? Tyrande. Who has delegates in the other allied nations? Tyrande. Who negotiates with the other nations of the Alliance? Tyrande. Outside of that arcane ban and druidism what has the circle done to shape and lead the society. How can you think that the 2 are in equal standing when one side controls nearly everything?
No my point stands. The Sisterhood is the governing body and the Sisterhood has always been passed down from woman to woman and as their are no males in the organization yet and even if their were the other members have thousands of years on them. The next leader based on past events will continue to be female, unless Elune dictates otherwise. Leadership is passed from one female to the next, that’s a matriarchy.
The Kaldorei are run by an organization that is a matriarchy which makes the Kaldorei society one. Can that change, yes but until it does weare where we are. The females are in the highest positions of power. The ruler, the governing body, and the army.
You may not like word of god thing that the devs did here but it is what it is and there it’s clearly more that sufficient evidence to support it.
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I know that you doing some special Olympic mental gymnastics with the best of them.
Wrong again
" high priestess Tyrande Whisperwind reorganized the order to direct the Sentinels. She herself became the sole ruler of the night elf nation, remaining that way for thousands of years." Gamepedia/Night Elves @ Government
You literally have been arguing that this whole time. Point is, Tyrande’s authority extends to the Kaldorei druids of the CC.
Wrong Again
" there is a widespread belief to this day that the deepest mysteries of the changeable moon goddess can only be comprehended by other women. The Sisterhood has therefore remained exclusively female thus far. " The Warcraft Encyclopedia/Sisterhood of Elune
Which makes them matriarchal
“a system of society or government ruled by a woman or women.”
The Clergy is restricted to women only based solely on the premise that women are better priestesses than men.
By every definition, they are.
And by the word of Blizzard, they are.
" Where the male Night Elf, female Night Elf are just standing right side by side, the Druid here, the female in front, female in front because that’s the Night Elf culture from Warcraft III, right? The Sentinels. The matriarchal society. And so she’s at that forefront, Malfurion, who we just saw how powerful Malfurion is in this whole film, but he is clearly in a position of being “second in command” here." -Terran Gregory
Yes they do… The Sisterhood and the Sentinels are literally the Government.