Of course, in hindsight sure. But… but! I am whipping out my Sylvanas Fan Card Argument and saying “This is Blizzard screwing over a good character and villain batting him.” Fandral made some good points if you played a night elf, but Blizzard then made sure to turn him into a lunatic villain come Cataclysm.
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Well, he was always on the fringe, pretty militaristic (and Xenophobic) and always pushing for aggressive actions. Add that to centuries of slowly losing his mind to grief and corruption, it was only a matter of time.
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But I am not dismissing it on the basis of sex and gender… I am dismissing it because it doesn’t address the original premise… And it’s just saying “Look, men exist”.
Yet she explicitly said “I could order you.”
Meaning, even if they had no relationship, she had the authority to make him do what she wanted. Again, this has been brought up earlier in the thread. Just read the thread.
Not really, that was pretty much unanimous of the entire non-Highborne population.
Not it wasn’t… The Druids played no role in governing, and even Druids worship Elune. Nature is not exclusive with Elune, Elune is a Goddess of balance and nature…
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No, it doesn’t. You’re literally the only person who’s inferring that.
Inferring Sexism where none exists is, itself, sexist.
Of course she had the Authority, as one of the two leaders of his people and his Teacher’s Beloved. Druids aren’t separate entities, completely removed from society. They’re all still Night Elves so they’re still Citizens of the Night Elfs, even before becoming Druids.
But Druid’s as an Organization is still a governing power within NE Society.
It was agreed upon, yes but it was Malfurions decision and by his direction.
That’s literally what I just said, except yes, Druids by virtue of Malfurion leading the Night Elves, have governing influence.
No… It’s not. Sexism is prejudice, discrimination or stereotyping on the basis of sex. That is not what I am doing.
I am attacking an argument. I am saying the argument itself is sexist because it is made with the assumption that the prevalence of men within a society undermines the existence of a matriarchy. Which is prejudice made on the basis of sex.
No they are not.
“before his death still under the direction of Cenarius himself, took no active part in governmental affairs, as their numbers included druids from several other species.” - Warcraft Encyclopedia.
No it wasn’t.
No they don’t. Malfurion has played a hand in Governance by the virtue of his relationship with Tyrande. He himself has no actual authority that isn’t given to him by Tyrande.
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Just a bystander in this, but IMO, Blizzard wants to have their cake and eat it too.
Night elf society is matriarchal… except when it’s not. They clearly desire (or desired) to have strong matriarchal elements, but the clarity and follow-through are muddled because either 1) “we have this one cool exception!” (which turns out to be dozens of exceptions), and 2) “we want a matriarchy, but not one that excludes anyone of anything” (e.g., male leaders, male priests.)
Despite the very different points of view in this thread, the truth is that both those who see a matriarchal theocracy and those who see a more complex situation can find bases in lore… because the lore has been “matriarch-ish” and “egalitarian-ish.”
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This is an entirely fair assessment. While I think it is easier to see Kaldorei as firm Matriarchy, I can admit that Blizzard has not stuck to their guns in it’s portrayal, and I think they are afraid too.
I do think people who are so determined to find egalitarianism in Kaldorei society are doing so with a willful ignorance of the clear female dominance of ruling institutions, though.
When a Blizzard developer explicitly uses the word Matriarchal to describe Kaldorei society, and you still have people debating it… I think the conversation has moved away from what the lore is, to what people want the lore to be.
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its not a patriarchy either
Ooops, typo. Thanks for pointing it out. Kaldorei society is a matriachy.
Literally NO ONE has made that argument.
The only argument that’s being put forth is that they are not a TOTAL Matriarchy in that Men Do have Governing roles, which has been well established time and again, that you have repeatedly disregarded.
That’s Literally referring to Later in Lore in which the Cenarion Circle started accepting other Races. At the time of the Inception of the Night Elves, the ONLY other race that Cenarius taught was the Tauren, and they weren’t part of the Circle at the time. Also, that’s referring to Cenarius himself, as a Demigod. Of course he didn’t involve himself in the Political affairs of the races.
See? That right there is Sexist because you completely ignore Lore to justify your Preconceived notion.
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Its the only argument being made…
They don’t at the higher levels.
No it’s not… It’s before his death… Before the third war…
I am not ignoring lore… You are…
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More the issue here is that Blizzard has stated that Night Elves have a matriarchal society, so that is canon, but Blizzard has never defined what the Night Elves believe that to mean, nor has Blizzard defined what Blizzard believes it to mean.
People who believe that Night Elves do not have a matriarchal society are incorrect as far as the lore statement goes, but arguing about what a matriarchal society means to the Night Elves is speculative at best.
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That’s pretty much my point. And I doubt there will be much clarification any time soon. But here’s to hoping.
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By nobody in this thread.
Define “Higher Roles.”
Eitherway, doesn’t matter. Men in ANY governing role negates the concept of a Complete Matriarchy.
Thank you for conceding.
No U.
It has been the most consistently brought up argument here…
The Sisterhood of Elune
No it doesn’t… The united states has women in Congress… it’s still a patriarchy.
I think this means I’ve won.
You know, this is hardly even debatable. There is a totally of 4 people in this entire thread that have debated against Matriarchy. When pro-nelf Matriarchy sentiments get liked in the 10s and 20s. The few of you are just trying to get in the last word, and I am stubborn with lost causes. That is the only reason this thread is still going.
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Try again.
That’s the HIGHEST. Not the ONLY roles.
Under what definition? Women aren’t excluded from Governing Roles by virtue of them being women… At least hasn’t been for the last 50 years (legally 80 years.)
Not saying the Sentiment isn’t still prevalent but that doesn’t make it a patriarchy.
The one aspect that would make it one is that the control by men is legally established.
If you think you can declare yourself the winner by disregarding everything and everyone who disagrees with you, fine! You’re the “winner” in your own mind.
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no u
It’s actually the only. Unless you count the Sentinels… Which falls under the Sisterhood’s command anyway…
Regardless, it’s the highest. By your own admission.
Yet in Kaldorei society, men are excluded…
It’s not my fault their arguments haven’t been able to hold any water.
Highest, in a hierarchy.
Except they don’t.
You know, the argument of something’s truth or validity being determined by popular vote is a terrible precedent to set.
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And cultural relevance.
The Sisterhood of Elune is exclusive to Women.
Fair enough… Doesn’t make you anymore correct. Willfully ignoring lore to suite your sexist bias is not a good look for you.
Ruled by a Parsonarchy that’s comprised of females =/= Rule because they’re female.
The Sisterhood is not the sum total of the entire Night Elf Government.
No, what makes me right is my ability to offer up Lore to support my position, while you offer up headcanon.
That’s my line.