Is feral really as bad as people say?

[Kamekilido-blackhand]

Feral is as good as the player behind the keyboard…true for all specs, really. It’s a bit more challenging to master, but it’s so rewarding when you get there! Don’t listen to people who say it’s crap dps for the effort. Once you get really good, the only ones who will beat you are those who are comparably good at their own spec. I routinely beat outlaw and DH on reaping packs and overall when I run keys. A good feral will always beat a lousy player hiding behind a FOTM Aside from that, it’s really fun if you like the playstyle.

I use Sabertooth and Blood Talons in M+ regardless of the affixes. Crit/mastery are my best secondary stats. I can see the merit behind using the Predator/MoC build with a focus on crit/haste. Personally, I feel that build lost a bit of its bite with the 8.1 changes and don’t think it will scale as well over the long term of the expansion, especially since we lost our haste buff, but to each their own. As long as you’re having fun with your feral and maximizing your potential, go for it!

[Sajitarius-sisters-of-elune]

I spent more time than is health on a target dummy to look at what an ideal single-target setup is like…

I had the gear in bank to set up a couple moderately different secondary setups at the same ilvl:

1. Crit: 1250 – Haste: 800 – Mastery: 980 – Versatility: 350 – Crit enchants
2. Crit: 1250 – Haste: 1150 – Mastery: 540 – Versatility: 450 – Haste enchants
   3x wild fleshrending and 3x jungle fury
   No raid buffs, no hero, no pots, no flask, no food

I tried every combo that included:
Predator, Sabertooth
Soul, Roar, Incarnation
Slash
MoC, Bloodtalons

I also tried combos:
Lunar Inspiration - Soul / Roar - slash - Moc / BT
Feral frenzy - Predator / Sabertooth - Soul - slash

I actually sat there and played out a 3 minute run from Berserk to berserk (didn’t use the 2nd one). I tried to play each talent choice optimally, changing the opener and casts depending on the runs. 4-5 attempts per choice on each gear set.

With both I found:
Top choice: (Sabretooth + Soul + slash + Bloodtalons) and (sabertooth + soul + slash + MoC) were very close, BT was slightly ahead of MoC, but both were within like 0.5k, so could just be error.
Another thing I noticed is that (sabertooth + soul + slash + feral frenzy) was only about 0.5k behind those two. It’s pretty close.

The two kinda-different stat sets made no real difference. it was about the same DPS regardless.

Predator is a DPS loss over top choice by about 2-3k consistently (~20-21k vs 18-19k). This was the same in both gear sets.

Lunar Inspiration does not do well, about a 3-4k loss. It’s also hard to manage another dot, particularly with the need to also keep thrash up for fleshrending. It took me a few attempts to re-adjust. This was actually the most annoying build to play.

Moment of Clarity and Blood talons is almost equal. Sabertooth + Soul + Brutal Slash + (BT / MoC) was within like 0.5k average. Again, this was the same in both gear sets.

Savage roar was about a 1k loss in general. It was also more annoying to play. Again, same in both gear sets. I liked roar better when the bleeds were high damage. Even though the start of legion was tedious, at least the bleeds were huge damage, along with ashmanes, was a little room for some skill play for energy use, or when roar snaphotted.

Incarnation was about a 1-2k loss, better burst (for feral) at start, like 35k+ and annoying to play, more annoying than savage roar, felt like being back in the start of legion with energy regeneration. Rake does huge damage at the start

Ferocious bite was almost always top damage, but not always. Incarnation, shred was top. With predator and MoC, they’d swap places sometimes, but were generally pretty close for me. MoC made shred a higher % in all builds, but bit was still a decent % more.

As a point of note: Wild fleshrending isn’t affected by armor. That makes a difference on bosses, particularly raid bosses. I’m sure fleshrending had a big influence on these results, especially with this armor point. In praticular, (obviously) it buffs shred damage. noticing that MoC, predator, incarnation, all tend to lean heavier on shred, without fleshrending, I assume these would do worse.

I was honestly surprised how close all the talent choices were in actual output.

[Tical-shattered-hand (Tical)]

I appreciate the effort you put in, but I have to admit that your results arent very surprising. You have proven what talents have the highest single target dps, and at no point was that ever really up for debate.

For raids, arguing what talents are better for AOE or ST is irrelevant since you can change talents on the fly and cater to each fight, but for m+, you’re locked into whatever gear and talents you have once that key is activated.

With the current meta for m+, even if it’s tyrannical, aoE dps matters more than single target DPS.

[Sajitarius-sisters-of-elune]

It did one thing for me, which was demonstrate that the ‘sims’ thing is actually pretty accurate for patchwerk fights. The simulation numbers and what I was able to get out of each talent set is almost right on the nose.

I’m done typing for now, but in short… for mythic+ IMO, Predator is close to 100% of the time almost always better for me, regardless of affixes, tested and confirmed. MoC and Bloodtalons is still a tossup. Definitely soul, not roar or incarnation. Slash vs wrath was a dps tossup, depends on affixes and dungeons, slash ‘calculated’ better for me, until I got the 3x fleshrending, now have settled on primal wrath specifically so that swipe still exists without charges.

[Petrolleum-kelthuzad]

My first time every using a “sim”, I have no idea what to do so I used a “quick sim” and it says 19,568 DPS

No way have I EVER hit 19,500 DPS for more than a few seconds Whatever, I love Petro and feral. Fun will always be > DPS

Also, hello fellow druids. Keep up the good conversations
+ =

[Drezwazluz-aegwynn (Drezwazluz)]

The simulation numbers and what I was able to get out of each talent set is almost right on the nose.

No crap, really. Who’d have thought the sims are accurate.

[Sajitarius-sisters-of-elune]

Because they haven’t been in the past. Fortunately, there’s people around to test and figure out stuff so the other people can follow.

[Drezwazluz-aegwynn (Drezwazluz)]

Yeah, back when askmrrobot was a thing, sure.

[Happyendding-tichondrius]

Garbage BZ incompetence leads to such a bad Feral performance

[Ryecoke-korgath (Ryecoke)]

So… yeah… it does come across a bit elitist.
But I dont think he meant to be insulting at all. Thats how I was. Thats how I think. Im not trying to be rude to people or say that Im better than anyone. I just know what works (because I tested it in game myself) and Im confident in my own abilitys as a feral. As is Ssathyrr.

Thats why I get a little annoyed with people who use absolutes when giving advice when all they are really doing regurgitating what they hear/read from someone else.

So let’s get this straight, it’s acceptable when you give your opinions because you’re super experienced and you have logs of one top feral that fits your narrative.

When others give their different opinion, they are just noobs regurgitating what other people say.

There’s no way that their information comes from their own vast experience, other expert feral’s opinions, or you know…mathematics?

Got it.

Im not trying to be rude to people or say that Im better than anyone.

Zul is a ST fight?

LMFAO!!!

(no. He doesnt play this game, he just sits in his mothers basement, trolling the forums, increasing his post count with garbage posts such at these, and then using that higher post count as a false validation for his ridiculous comments.)

I just knew someone would chime in on the brutal slash short bus! That’s why I included that build in my sims as well. It was dead last. DEAD LAST!

What type of sim did I use? Literally any other option that isn’t focus on single target dps. Have you run a mythic before? It doesn’t sound like it. Let me break it down for you. There’s A LOT of trash pulls with multiple targets, and More than 50% of the boss encounters have adds or multiple targets.

But yes… please enlighten me on why I should be choosing ST talents for a dungeon where swipe accounts for half my damage.

Hm.

[Tical-shattered-hand (Tical)]

U mad bro?

[Ryecoke-korgath (Ryecoke)]

Nope not really. Just enjoying pointing out your hypocrisy. Not seeing this vast experience you’re talking about - seems like you are basing your opinions on other people’s experiences as much as anyone.

Nice reply though. Have a wonderful day!

[Tical-shattered-hand (Tical)]

You gave bad advice. I corrected you.

You’re welcome.

[Ereyethunrus-sargeras]

Go away, you’re just being rude and giving your own version of absolute advice (advice that certainly doesn’t come from experiencing the content at a high level)

[Ryecoke-korgath (Ryecoke)]

No problem.

I’ll leave it up to new aspiring Ferals to choose between:

1. the opinion of a player with low score that mostly plays resto (and is extremely rude and condescending) + the logs of one high-end feral who fits their narrative
2. conventional wisdom, math, and most logs

Their choice.

[Tical-shattered-hand (Tical)]

The only talent you have to change between content is predator for saber tooth.

Um you should NEVER do this. Sabertooth is basically mandatory in every type of content currently. Even if you think Predator gives you a marginal AoE boost, you are sacrificing A TON of single target damage.

Your words. 100% false.

I’m not dealing in absolutes. I’m not the one who said “NEVER”. If you don’t want to listen to sound advice because your feelings got hurt, that’s your problem.

[Ryecoke-korgath (Ryecoke)]

Your words. 100% false.

I’m not dealing in absolutes. I’m not the one who said “NEVER”. If you don’t want to listen to sound advice because your feelings got hurt, that’s your problem.

Not only do these 2 statements completely contradict each other. There’s also this:

I’d agree with never taking Predator. You lose too much damage not taking SbT. Yes it is that massive.

Absolutely zero truth to this.

Stop owning yourself, dude. Anyways…

If you want to play Predator+MoC in 10s or lower because you find it more fun and you find it competitive, that’s fine. I don’t have a problem with that. Knock yourself out.

But don’t try to make the argument that it’s the better pick, especially when you are gimping Feral’s biggest reason of being brought to Mythic+ in the first place. There are much more meaningful classes to bring to pad the AoE meters. And yes, dropping Sabretooth is a massive single/priority target loss - trying to dispute that just shows your ignorance.

[Tical-shattered-hand (Tical)]

You got any math, logs, sims to back that statement?

I’m not saying sabertooth isn’t the best. Not once in this thread or any other thread have I said that sabertooth isn’t that best for ST.

Youre having an argument with yourself in your head.

Predator is a viable option. Telling newcomers to the spec to “NEVER” use it is a far greater crime than me hurting your feelings.

Get well soon.

[Ryecoke-korgath (Ryecoke)]

But saying people ride the “short bus” for using Brutal Slash is okay? You are a bundle of hypocritical joy that keeps on giving.

We are both arguing from the stance of what is optimal. You can technically play whatever talent set you want depending on the level you’re doing, who you’re with, and what you enjoy. I didn’t think that needed to be stated, but apparently so.

So… sure… predator is “viable” (but if you wanted to just be a gimpy rogue, why wouldn’t people just bring rogues?), but Sabertooth is the optimal choice which gives Feral a strength that makes it actually somewhat desirable. Happy now?

[Tical-shattered-hand (Tical)]

For people who use brutal slash? No. Its a solid choice for many raid encounters.
For people who use Brutal slash in a mythic+? Yes.

I see that I chose the wrong word, and that you are twisting its meaning to suit your narrative. Predator it not only a viable spec, Its a competitive one. Depending on the affix, comp, player and gear, it can often times be the best option for M+. I have proven this with all the ''conventional wisdom, math, and logs" I can throw at you. (in other threads)

You, on the other hand, havent provided any proof to back your statements.

If you want to come at me and attack my character and how I treat others, by all means, youre more than welcome too. You would be correct in doing so.

How I treat others doesn’t disqualify my experience or change facts, unfortunately. (while I was killing heroic lich king and heroic deathwing, you werent even playing the game) I know its 2019, and being offended is a thing, but believe me when I say that I dont care. You’re just gonna have to grow up and deal with the cold hard truth.

Theres no shame in admitting you are wrong.