That’s a straw man, there’s no relevancy to the necessity of WBuffs to the discussion.
You have yet to explain why being dispelled is such a major problem.
Probably because it’s a community one rather than a game one, which is what you tried to argue with your straw man.
Do you think this should be fixed? That’s opinionated, I think the discussion simply boils down to whether you think Classic should be left alone or not because this is the way the game worked back then. Pretending it’s just PvP on a PvP server is silly though.
I don’t think classic should be changed just to appease people trying for log parses.
And yes it is pvp on pvp server, you explicitly agreed that the opposite faction could do whatever they want to you in game when you rolled there. You were not given any guarantees the opposite faction would play fair or be nice or even conform to rules you consider acceptable.
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At it’s most basic level it certainly is. You ultimately can’t argue that when someone sees a red name and acts hostile toward them that it isn’t some level of PvP, but it entirely misses the point of the issue they are raising, which is that the PvP interaction taking place has a very specific objective whose sole purpose is to upset the person behind the keyboard in a manner that the person has virtually no recourse for.
Even in the early days when lowbie ganking was far more prevalent than it is in retail this kind of specific form of grief-esque PvP has never really existed. If you get ganked enough you log off, go to another area, call in a friend, and eventually move on. This type of activity’s purpose has been achieved from the get go and it doesn’t even require them to kill you to do it.
That is why I acknowledge the discussion as something more than just PvP happening on a PvP server. I see the interaction between the two groups as an increasingly toxic problem for the community to have, especially as we go into harder content where WBuffs will carry raids more and more and while I don’t think it absolutely must be fixed I can certainly see the reason why doing something about it (such as WBuffs fade in raid or they are undispellable) would lessen that toxicity.
Which is weird. Your first post argued there wasn’t a problem because they weren’t required, which seems to acknowledge that if raids had been balanced with WBuffing in mind you’d acknowledge it as a problem and want a solution to it despite the fact that you’re arguing it’s PvP on a PvP server which you signed up for.
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Umm… that is not an issue on a pvp server. The rules explicitly allow the opposite faction to do whatever they want to you for whatever reason they want. You get to do the same to them. There is no expectation to justify why beyond as you said, it’s a red name.
If raids were balanced around requiring world buffs I would have a different opinion yes. But they’re not are they?
This is good news.
If people don’t like their world buffs getting taken from them then they can just transfer to a pve server.
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On one hand you’re trying to argue that PvP on a PvP server is not an issue in any capacity and then on the other hand you’re also saying OH OH OH OH OH but if they actually mattered from a game balancing perspective then maybe we shouldn’t let it just be PvP on a PvP server.
Hmm… we’re not talking about a hypotehtical situation where raids are balanced around world buffs.
We’re talking about the actual situation where there is no real impact to someone dispelling you. It’s certainly less impactful than them just killing you. Are you saying it also shouldn’t be okay to kill players on the opposite faction while they’re running to a raid?
Insults don’t come from within. They are inspired. You inspired me Pollz. Gratz.
No one is pretending anything. It is pvp on a pvp server.
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You physically cannot control your self, can you?
“res dispelling isn’t PVP”
- Yes it is. PVP servers are supposed to reflect the, oh, I don’t know…WAR that’s going on between the Horde and the Alliance. In case you don’t understand what war entails, attrition is a part of it. And using lowbrow, sneaky, or otherwise contemptible methods to achieve a goal is often a part of war. Looking at it on the grand scale a debuff may only cost some minor time or parse rankings, or, for lesser geared players and guilds, potentially cause a wipe for a whole raid. In other words, progress the other faction makes is hindered by both the dispeller, and the “victim’s” lack of preparedness, or willingness to take necessary precautions to avoid at all costs the debuff that cripples or annoys them.
Sometimes perhaps it is unavoidable, but that doesn’t make it any less valid of a tactic. Now, you could argue on a smaller scale that perhaps, targeting one single player really doesn’t accomplish much, but if it does slow down a player or guild’s progression for items, PVP -OR- PVE, then it was valuable both to the dispeller and the dispeller’s faction to accomplish that goal. And this conflict is actually truer to the Warcraft Universe, as it was in the time of Classic, than to say it’s not allowed/griefing/bannable because I only want to be targeted when I say it’s okay waaaaaaa.
What makes this particular case so noteworthy is that I assume Arlaeus, who I assume is probably a fairly good player, would either not be hindered, or only so minimally as to not make a significant impact. Yet here we are, 500+ posts in to the thread and people still whining and crying about it.
How many of you played Vanilla and are in your 30s+ now? Crying and forming nonsensical arguments about an effective, if somewhat low-brow tactic used in a war between 2 factions in a fictitious universe on A PVP SERVER?
lol. buncha jokers
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There’s like two people who won’t let it go. Look, there’s people who think the Earth is flat. At some point you just have to shrug and accept people believe crazy things and will never change. At least Blizzard did the right thing here.
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We are talking about whether you want to adhere to the letter of the law or not. If you want to argue that PvP on a PvP server is fair game because that’s how the CoC is written then I’m saying stick to your guns on that. That is a very textualist approach to the situation, but it is a legitimate interpretation theory. However you then openly contradict yourself by saying you’d be willing to change it if you, personally, felt it mattered.
I would point out that if we want to use such a broad brush of “PvP on a PvP server is always legitimate” then you open your door to allow feeding, throwing, and griefing because at the end of the day it is just PvP on a PvP server. Obviously Blizzard has rules against that behavior because such a simplistic stance does not capture all the nuances that can take place. The WBuff situation that has unfolded over the course of Classic has never taken place before and deserves some level of attention by Blizzard and, if you ask me, deserves some sort of statement either condoning or stating intention to alter it.
People stack WBuffs because it’s fun to raid with WBuffs. They also put in considerable time into doing it and it’s for that reason that other people target them for the sole purpose of ruining that fun. This isn’t just a simple interaction of walking up to the an NPC, getting buffs, and heading out. The whole reason people get infuriated, and people look to infuriate them, is because there is a concept of wasting their time.
For a brief second, ignore everything about what you know about the game. Ignore the way the game is designed in regards to what a PvP server means, the way the game is balanced, and just process the goal of this activity. They’re not doing it for an in-game reason like protecting their farm spot, honor grinding, or trying to drum up a big WPvP battle for the fun of it. They aren’t even performing some sort of self-sacrificing act like a mage who runs in to AoE the flag during a BG. They are doing it because they know that when those zone into their raid they have pissed in their cheerios. If they’re really nefarious about it they will target tanks so they put out less TPS and impact the raid even more.
I hope that if you look at that objectively we can agree that the logic behind doing it is rather perverted when you consider the goal. By contrast when P2 launched and honor farming entire zones became the norm, which was far more reaching than this ever was, that same intent behind their actions did not exist.
This goes back to the discussion of what the CoC says and how you want to interpret and apply the rules. You have to ask yourself whether you want to apply the CoC as it is written or ask yourself what was the intent behind how and why they wrote it the way that they did. And given that Blizzard explicitly states they have the right to determine what is or isn’t unacceptable behavior they always have an out anyways.
But to answer your question we have no precedence that indicates actual PvP combat between players has ever been actioned against, both in the past and in the present so there’s no real good reason to discuss whether that shouldn’t be allowed. The WBuffing situation is an entirely new scenario that we’ve never had in the history of the game before which is why it deserves some extra level of attention.
Then maybe play on a pve server and you won’t have to worry about it. Crying because the other faction didn’t play by your rules isn’t a valid complaint on a pvp server.
Oh I’m not disagreeing that it is completely a jerk move, I’m saying you volunteered for people to grief you for no better reason than to upset you when you rolled on a pvp server.
People griefing just for the sake of griefing has always been the case on pvp servers, world buffs are just a specific example of it. Blizzard had a solution from day one for people who don’t like it, they’re called pve servers. I play on one for that exact reason.
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I mean we are both responding right?
You being inconvenienced isn’t something Blizzard should spend 1 second on.
No, he’s generally understood to be very bad at the game. Lazy enough to not get his toon to the raid ahead of prime dispelling time. Too dumb to have his guild summon a bait first for the obvious dead body of a known res dispeller. With a sense of entitlement that is so vast an immeasurable, that he apparently paid a pocket GM to ban the person that dispelled him.
The GM was absolutely a bad apple, but it remains a little ridiculous that the person who ACTUALLY initiated this chain of events isn’t identity banned by this point. There isn’t a single shred of doubt in me that if I, a random no name player, had engaged a GM to ban someone that had me angry, and then paid said GM, I would have probably netted a bit more than the 6 month suspension that the dispel guy got initially.
PvP = Player versus Player, what part of an offensive dispell, even if it is just to inconvenience the opposite faction, isn’t PvP? I stopped playing on PvP servers for a number of reasons, this would not be one of them. On a PvP server it is faction against faction. If you are flagged you are fair game. You might as well ask for them to “unflag” people at the entrace of instances and turn PvP servers in to PvE servers 