I already went down this path guys.
This is 1.12 data running on the Legion server.
It’s as close to vanilla as you are going to get.
And now everyone says that pservers altered data to make it harder.
You will not win this fight.
FWIW I checked my Bestiary guide for Scarlet Gallant…
80-99 (min-max) damage.
Then again folks told me the Brady book is incorrect as well.
Tanks were different back in vanilla an BC
most classes could tank a little bit and tanks were not gods
To the players claiming all the dungeons / raids were nerfed by 1.12. This is fundamentally false, but at the same time a little true.
The mobs did not change, the player power is what was changed.
In the later patches many items that were green became blue, the talents were all adjusted, for some classes this was a fairly massive buff, for others not so much. The itemization for many items was adjusted which often increased their value astronomically compared to before the change.
Add on to this the simple fact that at the beginning many players had no idea which stats were more important, (hello spirit rogue my old friend) or exactly how different weapons interacted with skills.
By the end of vanilla the theorycrafters had it pretty much all worked out, X was better than Y because Z. Some people cared, most didn’t. Most simply got the basics and that was good enough.
As far as the pirate servers go, they had some data (from the player side) and they had some ideas (from the theorycrafters) and they spliced it all together with a health dose of guesswork and hope. There are a lot of mistakes on pservers, some because they didn’t know and others were done on purpose. The problem with all of them is that since they never had any of the original code/data they base the whole thing off the player side.
Did Boss A have 10000 armor or did it have 2k armor and a passive damage reduction of 45%? Does it have 200 resist or does it simply absorb X elemental damage? Did these debuffs stack or is only the stronger one actually doing anything?
Many of these things are impossible to determine from the player side without a ton of testing, which often was simply never done. The reason it wasn’t done was because to a player the mechanics and stats of monsters is mostly irrelevant, the only thing relevant was how much damage they dealt and how much they could take.
As for the elite damage on the pservers, most of that was intentionally increased. Both to make it less profitable to solo (for higher level players) and also because some of the creators either felt it wasn’t challenging enough with the later talents or they simply remembered it being harder than it actually was.
Using any form of proof from a pirate server is useless because they are 100% inaccurate. Close is not accurate.
As my old programming prof used to say, " Garbage in, Garbage out ".
Your feelings don’t matter. Blizzard isn’t directly selling you feelings. They can’t help or control your feelings.
patch 1.12 is towards the end of vanilla, before TBC launch. There are years of patches and content before that.
Which one is ‘classic’ to you? You can’t even say because you don’t even know enough about the product to say.
You bought something you didn’t understand, and then jump to conclusions about it while still failing to understand. Either play it when it comes out or don’t.
You are not a victim.
i mean the dude in the video says it aint vanilla though
That is true. Hurry go make a video saying ‘it is vanilla’. I suppose that is all it takes.
yes, you’re bringing up a memory that is 14 years old, where you played with people in crappy gear, and nobody knew how to handle dungeons properly. blizz has said before multiple times that these are the numbers closest to the original game and private servers were vastly over tuned. either accept it, or don’t play.
there is no reliving the past.
I 2 manned SM Cath as an arms warrior/holy priest combo. I think we were right around level 38-40. I don’t even remember equipping a shield and may or may not have gotten my WW axe by then. I think we wiped once. The game isn’t as hard as you wish it was. The early dungeons are meant to be forgiving. If a group of level 30s in BiS gear can cheese a level 42 boss, then more power to them. Gear and 1.12 talents are huge
Some people just want to complain.
This. They twinked it, man. Twinking was a huge thing in Vanilla, and there was an entire subset of the playerbase that really geeked out on pushing that envelope to find out how high they could achieve above their character level. The best enchants, the best gear available for that clvl, the best consumables, every min/max strategy possible deployed so that they could accomplish things they weren’t supposed to be able to accomplish.
One video of a successfully twinked dungeon should not have you this upset.
Let’s look at it. You might be right, and if you are, we’ll know within a week. But we don’t know that, yet. Judging from the video, this was people who planned this meticulously and we cannot assess how the dungeon will play for the average group in greens based upon this footage.
hey, if you refer to the beta, those players is essentially twinks, some of the gear they got by having a small army help them… since quest items dident have a lvl requirement, essentailly you have a player with gear of a much higher level…
This will even out the closer to 60 people get as there is no higher level quest gear to twink yourself out with…
the game was never hard.
Just out of curiosity? When Vanilla was out, how many level 30 groups just decided they were gonna go out and do a sm cathedral run just to see if they could do it. I guarantee you if a group back in vanilla days were all geared up and wanted to do this at level 30 it would have been done. This video doesnt change anything on the way i look at classic
OOOOOOOOh thats a BINGO
Generally Zero.
Because there was no point. The gear is unusable and you cannot get the quest at level 30. The pvp bracket is 30-39 so as long as you get it done before 39 you’re golden. Why bang your head against an instance when you can simply level up a couple times and do it normally?
If someone at that time had decided to do it, I have no doubts it would have been done. For all the people who like to claim the vanilla players knew nothing and were much worse at this game than they give them credit for, we weren’t morons out to make the game harder for no reason.
For anyone who doesn’t understand twinking I present you three swords, all of which can be obtained at level 15 (got my BiS just before they killed the last stress test with a full group).
First is the normal progression two handed sword:
Fairly standard for the level, easy to get and use.
Slightly more advanced, still not too tough.
Then there is the big one, the BiS.
This one is ridiculously hard to get with the level cap at 15, but it was absolutely possible. Sure we death ran through some of the parts, and cheesed the 2 crystals with paladin bubble and it took a full group all night to complete what is normally probably a solo quest. It was however the most epic experience and was actually quite a lot of fun.
But this is the power of twinking, take a look at the difference between the damage, it’s monstrous.
What people love to forget is that Classic (Or Vanilla if you want) was never hard. IT was grindy, sure… but it was far more simplistic and easy compared to the expansions that came after it.
Compared to WoW 2004, BFA is hard mode.
The main reason that people think “vanilla” was hard is… partly because of the grind… and mostly because we were new to WoW… and for many of us, new to MMOs, back in 2004/2005.
It’s been 15 years. You are 15 years older, you are 15 years wiser, and you have 15 years of experience. Classic will never be the same as your 2004/2005 WoW experience, because YOU are not the same. YOU are a better player now, and that knowledge alone is what makes Classic easier for you.
Ya, astounishing that the harder difficulty is harder.
PvP is also better balanced and needs more coordination in retail.
Mythic is super duper hard and heroic/normal raids are harder than anything you will find in vanilla lol.
Mythics dungeons are also harder than anything you find in vanilla unless you are outgearing it;
Hell the best thing about vanilla PvE is that everything is super chill compared to nowadays.
Professions and leveling are def thumbed down compared to vanilla though in many aspects are not hard in any game, just takes more or less time. Main point i that due poor itemzation in vanilla professions had much more usage.
Oh boy have I got reasons for you.
Level was capped throughout the beta. Players hit that level cap (30 at one point, 40 at another), but continued playing and gearing, literally twinking out. We already know how grossly outgearing content utterly trivializes it.
The game is using the patch 1.12 database. By 1.12 many changes to threat, class buffs/nerfs, debuff slots, itemization, etc trivialized and effectively nerfed most of the game.
Vanilla WoW was not a hard game. I don’t know why people keep trying to remember it as this hardcore, difficult, challenging game. It was the casual man’s MMO. The filthy casual alternative to EQ. It was never particularly hard to begin with, but the aforementioned slow but steady nerfs to the game made it even easier as it progressed.
Twinks were not character with BiS.
They had BiS AND level 60 enchants on their gear, enchants just made twinks too overpowered because of how stats scaled. level 19 rogue would gain 25% critical strike chance due enchants for instance and 1k extra HP, that was a lot.
Yes I do remember back in the beginning a tank and dps would have had a hell of time hitting and doing damage on mobs 4 levels or more above your level. I think later on around AQ release they tuned them down especially the level 60 dungeons because only 20% of population ever run a 5 man scholo, strath, or LBRS. Yes I would agree the old hard way was so much better for the challenge and to weed out lesser players. I wish they did use a progressive patch system for it but we get what we get.