Well then, this took off FAR more than I expected it to… and turned out quite a bit better as well, some very well-done responses and valid points.
Won’t be able to get to EVERYTHING here, but this has been a surprisingly fruitful discussion… at least from my perspective.
Considering I half-expected this topic to be mostly people sharply disagreeing with it with no real acknowledgement that negative factors that do exist out there… yes, this is far better. It looks like we actually got people talking on the subject pretty seriously, mission accomplished on that front.
I may have been a bit hasty in saying it didn’t quite answer the question (seems the consensus would actually agree with you)… but I did feel your summation was a bit of an over-simplification. The follow-up is lacking the detail I’m looking for, but covers the basics of the debate.
I’d say it’s not just a matter of how, but also where and when.
One maxim I’d suggest is that if the boss goes down without too much difficulty or trouble… there’s no need to elaborate on the matter of performance, especially when dealing with random groups like LFD And LFR.
If there’s wipes due to low overall DPS, that when the “how” should come into play… it’s also important to note that quite often there’s OTHER problems which are likely contributing, most commonly if a player ends up dying during fight (especially early on).
The further you delve into it, the ONLY time low DPS should be a concern is if all other possibilities and issues have already been eliminated. In other words, when the boss still enrages when everyone else is still alive; it can be argued that then, and ONLY then, is low DPS has become a problem.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that the issue shouldn’t be handled carefully and tactfully as well.
And just an interesting observation I figured out today:
DPS meters allow players to single-out low performers
When there’s low DPS problems in FFXIV, where most people don’t have a parser active… it’s all but impossible to single-out people for under-performing, essentially forcing it to be a TEAM effort.
That being said… too many deaths is the most common cause (dead DPS is zero DPS), rather than just low output.
This is just one of the many ways to keep things on a more even keel… though open discussions aren’t automatically a bad approach.
That being said, jumping to the public shaming approach is NEVER acceptable.
There’s more than one thing at play there.
They spent a considerable amount of time focusing on third-party tools doing things they shouldn’t, particularly during the recent “World First Race” to TEA. That’s why they’re introducing changes to the waymarks (it won’t be possible to change them in combat anymore).
It’s hard to say if the comments on parsing tools grew out of that thing that they definitely wanted to address (waymarks), or if it was an additional topic they wanted to briefly address as well.
That being said, the recent influx of former WoW players (I, for one, noticed queue times in FFXIV getting longer with Patch 8.3 in WoW) may be resulting in some negative effects… mostly because some of them are bringing over some of their bad habits and behaviours from WoW (in other words, they’re seeing bad things in FFXIV), rather than solely because of the reputation of WoW community.
An interesting analogy… but one with some very tragic implications.
There’s a damned good reason guns are prohibited in most countries.
Your typical person CANNOT be trusted with them.
But of course, everyone things the problem is OTHER people… up until tragedy strikes them personally. It’s sad that it often takes until tragedies actually hit home before people realize that such heavy-handed regulations are put there for a reason.
We’re not playing with people’s lives with DPS meters, thankfully… but the argument follows the exact same path, to the same result.
I can’t offer personal experiences myself, but it’s pretty easy to track down some Ultimate clears on Youtube. Have a look and judge for yourself:
They’re outside the normal gear progression and have no story relevance, they’re just a fun challenge for those that want to seek it. The rewards are no better than the drops found in their respective Savage tier which must be cleared to unlock them.
You just get a title (which has, so far, been “The Legend”) and some VERY shiny weapons… which so far have been re-textures of old weapons with a thematic glow.
You have to be careful when providing unsolicited advice & information, which can easily come across as “forced” even if handled delicately. Doubly so when you consider that tempers are often strained and frustration high after a few wipes.
Providing advice and information when it ISN’T necessary, if all is going well… well, that seems just as likely (if not more likely) to set people off. If nothing is going wrong with a run, there’s no need to stir the pot just because it’s not “optimal”.
Of course, when someone asks for advice, they’re making conscious decision to try and improve… but if they haven’t expressed that intent, it’s often best to leave it lie UNLESS it is presenting other problems (namely, causing wipes).
Most story-difficulty bosses in FFXIV do not have the “traditional” enrage timer where the boss wipes the raid if they aren’t defeated before a certain point. Higher difficulty bosses often do, however.
However, the VAST majority of bosses (including on the story-mode difficulty) have DPS checks about halfway through the encounter; most of the time it involves adds (sometimes spawning all at once or in waves), and if you don’t deal with them before a bar fills to 100%, the boss WILL one-shot the entire party.
Just a quick diversion, this is pretty much the point of the topic.
As much as I would like to remove DPS meters from WoW… Pandora’s Box was opened a LONG time ago and there’s no going back. However, that doesn’t mean that the behaviours which they have inadvertently caused are acceptable.
Unfortunately, it would seem that “meter-shaming” has been normalized and become far too common… often under the excuse of “you’re harming the group”.
Calling it what it is – harassment – seems to have been what it took to break through here.
As many have pointed out, there is a way to do things without reaching the level of which it can be classified as harassment… the problem is that quite often, if not most of the time, it appears players would prefer to use meter-shaming rather than be supportive and provide constructive criticism.
Perhaps it’s a misinterpretation of them seeing being done correctly? There’s a lot of unknowns there, but people seem to forget the intent of what was being done and have since perverted the intent of helping someone into their way of asserting dominance and stroking their own ego.
This topic was ALWAYS about the slippery slope.
Where do you draw the line for acceptable behaviour where your only options are being too lenient (not stopping what you’re trying to control) or being too heavy-handed?
In any case, seems this DID get people’s attention as intended and got them thinking about it.
