you cant tell then that it doesnt go through that they run around with their heads cut off like chickens…lol.
There is a difference of player intent and ability, no doubt. That doesn’t change factual map based differences though. Ignoring objective facts (design strengths and weaknesses) to argue subjective ones (player skill) does not negate them. To pretend otherwise is idiocy.
I think it may have to do with a large portion of geared players with experience no longer queuing AV.
In the first week or so of AV dropping, before premades were established, Alliance won constantly. To the point many Horde went with the let them win mentality.
Perhaps many of the players that were geared finished the rep grind and left. Another consideration could be the effect of queue times, in this same timeframe Horde had nearly instant queues, which could have resulted in a more lax mentality toward winning with max honor.
It is also worth consideration that at this time the queue was very short for Horde, indicating a higher Alliance participation rate; and supporting the possibility of the first point that more geared Alliance queued during this time frame.
However, it does show that Alliance were able to consistently win AV in roughly 10-15 minutes without premades.
Just food for thought.
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Umm, no, they can contest it faster maybe, not get it capped. it takes 5 minutes to Cap. Alliance can arrive fight and Contest it anytime.
See, the problem with this 7 Min AV approach? People don’t even know how to properly Capture (Cap) an objective…well Lose and learn as they say no?
Ummmmm… the alliance base is better defensively, allot more choke points plus the bridge so a smaller group can defend without getting immediately overrun while the horde base has 1 choke and inside the horde base the ally zerg gets to turn a corner on the horde defense and overrun them unless the entire team turtles.
You know thats way the horde started intercepting the ally raid, cause actually defending our own base is a joke we have better luck defending the ally base against the allys
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And you know what? Alliance doe snot even Fight at the Bridge …or just does not fight.
I constantly see so many people standing there mounted watching and doing nothing and they are not AFK because these are the people giving the instructions at the begging of the game.
“Lets do this lets do that, lets all go ibgy!” - plan fails, then silence till “let them have SP”…then “everyone move south get LT’s”… not even re-attack SP to take it while it is contested people do not use trinket to recall in base.
“Lets get LT’s”… It is no contest for the horde, there is like 10 people max actually fighting in an AV from Alliance side…
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yeah Ive seen games with 10 allys players the rest are ghosts or in cave, pretty sad sight
Horde has the ability to prospector pull on Van, not that it’s needed.
Moreover, you guys didn’t quit/give up because our premades weren’t playing a scorched earth strategy and you were still able to get decent honor out of each match. Horde, on the other hand do their damndest to make sure Alliance gets NOTHING. This is why I’m out of the ranking game until Blizz unf*cks the AV situation and/or fixes WSG so pugs can actually play against pugs.
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Horde placement allows for them to see our plan and counter on the fly. If we send 10 to SFGY they send 20 if we send 5 they send 10, if we send all they just go SHGY and the come wipe us up since IBGY is closer to SFGY than SPGY duh.
All in all it’s been tried, on days where we have a lazy Horde team and 37+ active players we can pull a win but the average game is massively Horde tilted.
If we were playing football with pick-up teams but pro quarterbacks and one team started on the 20 every possession and the other on the 40 I wouldn’t call it fair just because we both kick extra points from the same spot.
Flux I am sorry but that is the nature of Every Battleground on both sides.
Horde reacts and adjusts to you and you have to react and adjust to them too.
If you send 10 and they send 20 you call it and reinforce as needed, back and forth.
This is not one move deal. It is move counter move counter-counter move counter-counter-counter move etc as needed. You have to Observe and decide on the Field be flexible and adaptable to what the enemy does Anticipate their strategy and move Alliance forces where needed while keeping in mind the overall goal.
I mean let me ask you this in the following scenario.
Lets say we have a full game here 40 vs 40 games starts all go south to ibgy, and horde decides to let it slide and goes directly to DB so while you are getting tower point Horde gets SP gy and DB towers and Aid Station.
What is the best move at this point for alliance?
The Fact there’s horde actually thinking The Map layout dosent favor them is the funniest thing Ive seen today.
Like meeting us at belinda isnt an advantage lol. or that the IB Choke / crossroad area isnt 10x harder to get trought then icewing …
You Guy’s are a real joke.
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Although from what I’ve seen since the AV changes, horde seems to make sure the alliance don’t have anything captured and are forced to respawn in their starting cave. We’ve even beaten them a ways into the cave itself.
This is why I stopped queuing.
Even if there is a decent size group that makes it past Belinda and initial Horde wave playing “defense” (on their offensive side of the field, I might add), the Horde completely divert to back-cap SFGY and force the full on turtle at the awful IWB choke.
From there, it turns into a slow grind to Vann - maximizing honor kills and downing every bunker because not enough Alliance are able to get past the IWB choke.
Even if there is a stealth group that makes it South to try and kill LTs and/or cap a couple towers, it only takes 5-10 Horde to recall and prevent the Alliance from gaining any significant amount of bonus honor. Horde can afford to lose 5-10 from their Offensive line because the remaining players are more than enough to hold the entire Alliance team up North (due to the poorly designed choke points and spawn locations).
Since we can’t reliably get South to kill LTs or cap towers for any bonus honor, the team is completely demoralized at this point and people start going AFK at GYs or the cave and the loss just snowballs from there.
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True in my experience, all we’ve been going against are ally premades winning almost all the time
Losing is a joke heyoooo
Reading through the thread there’s a lot of good material and a lot of malarkey lol. I’m frustrated at the Alliance self defeatist attitude but lets examine this in detail starting with AV fundamentals:
The first item is to do away with the Myth that AV was dominated by the Alliance when we had premades… The fact is that Alliance only dominated AV for the first couple weeks which was only achieved because Horde allowed the Zerg to Drek. We may have won and got the additional rep, but they would leave with far more Honor than Alliance. Once Horde decided to PVP, that run was done. Even the premades had limited success and now from the Premades I’ve joined into, the primary goal is maximizing Honor through killing Lts. Some do try and Win and are occasionally successful but it certainly does not balance out.
Topology:
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From End to End this BG is designed completely in Favor of the Horde
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RH / FW Vs Aid Station / DB
- The sheer design of this section makes infiltrating while being defended almost impenetrable requiring Alliance to Outnumber Horde 2-1 or more to access RH- The Towers in FW tightly next to each other Overlook the Tightest Choke Point on the Map which is on a Hill preventing LOS for an Offense.
- Not only can Horde cast from there but Offense will experience the full onslaught of tower archers. Basically any CC to clow the Offense and a small group on Defense can annihilate a large group of O.
- There is a side entrance into FW by the fence but getting people that close while defended is almost impossible
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As for DB our Bunkers are spread out therefore Horde experience far less Archer damage when crossing. Although we have the “Bridge”, there is no other terrain or design advantages and requires at least the equivalent amount of defenders as attackers to Balance. The Bunkers themselves are an easy Zerg especially being so spread out and Alliance ranged cannot reach from one bunker to another like in FW. The Backdoor Horde has behind South is a premium advantage and would be similar to Alliance having a Backdoor into FW next to the Waterfall.
- IN summary, the DB is far more spread out and Wide open with little to know Defensive attributes
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Horde Spawn vs Alliance Spawn
- Horde leave cave and have a wide open field to run through whereas Alliance are easily farmed because the Cave exit is Choked
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FWGY vs SPGY
- Again FWGY is wide open allowing Horde to exit in many directions, pretty straight forward whereas SPGY is yet again positioned in a choke with one way out which is overlooked by hills that are easily accessible by Horde making this a premium farming location
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IBGY / IBT / TP vs SHGY / SHB / IWB
- Location location location lol… The distance between IBGY and the Towers, is much closer together than the distance between SHGY and the bunkers not to mention the fact that SHB is right in the Hordes Path and pretty Far South of SHGY making access and defending the area much more difficult than having a Tower almost right next to IBGY (not North) and one directly South) The sheer differences in Distance between these objectives make them vulnerable to an easy offensive attack and very difficult to Defend.
- The GY’s themselves, well again the same situation where SHGY is in a Choke therefore easily farmed and IBGY is wide open making escape easy
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Basic Access - Horde are granted two points of access into SHGY area. One from the South and one that takes Horde to from North side West of Balinda, whereas Alliance accesses point converge into one path therefore flanking is impossible unlike Hordes ability to Flak from the South and North
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IN summary the differences in these sections of the MAp highly favor the Horde, with the exception that the Hilltop beside SHGY which extends slightly south is about the only place on the Map where Alliance has a limited terrain advantage,
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Distance to Field of Strife
- On the Initial Zerg Alliance and Horde meet approximately just South of Balinda, therefore the the Horde are much closer to the Field from the Cave than Allianc. This puts Alliance on the Defense right off the start and would be equivalent to Alliance reaching Galv the same time Horde does. This aspect seems to go overlooked but is one of the biggest advantages the Horde have considering that AV is one of those BG’s that are most often decided in the early stages.
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The Terrain advantages whereby Horde can spawn camp or Farm GY’s makes any attempt at a comeback almost impossible considering we are either in a choke and the choke is overlooked by hills that are only accessible from the advancing teams direction.
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Then there is the summoning locations - The Icelord being out of the way off to the southwest side of the Field, where Ivus is right smack in from of there primary midfield GY, making that summon “almost” impossible. Alliance needs to have far more control of the area than Horde to pull off this summons, which pretty much opens a huge gap for Horde to swing North and control all the GY’s while this is happening.
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I am sure there are a few more details that could be added but these are the primary ones that have the most influence and give the Horde the greatest advantage
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All these factors result in the illusion that Horde are “Better” and more “coordinated” but in fact, Alliance start this BG at a huge disadvantage and have limited options that would yield successful results and requires FAR more coordination than on the Hordes Side. Just based on the FW vs DB design, when it takes 30 Alliance to penetrate FW with 10 defenders leaving 30 Horde to advance into DB with only 10 defenders, who’s going to come out the winner?. This can be frustrating and discouraging therefore leading to much of the self defeatist attitudes that are running rampant. You can only try so many approaches and lose so many times before you begin to concede before the game has started.
Horde Mentality vs Alliance Mentality
- This is interesting because it seems there is a distinct difference in psychologies between the two factions. Most Horde are more PVP oriented and have the Ganking mentality, which would just be summed up to more “Teamwork” oriented also whereas I have found many, not all, but many are very self centered and do not work well in a Team based environment.
- From my personal experience, most Alliance are PVE oriented and do not adapt well in the PVP environment where you need to be more dynamic and adapt to changes on the fly. They tend to approach PVP the same way as they would a PVE instance with a single strategy predetermined and a rinse and repeat mindset. This makes PVP a tremendous challenge for Alliance when the predetermined strategy fails, they have limited ability to switch strategies once the game is in progress and just tend to concede, despite whether or not we still maintain a strong position on the field.
My observation and analysis reveals that AV requires much more effort on Alliances behalf to succeed, and even in a well coordinated and strong group Alliance success rate is still going to be very limited even against a standard Horde Pug, The Topology is far too advantageous for the Horde requiring far less effort to advance and push the Alliance back. Then throw in the preconceived or the learned attitudes in addition to the sheer psychology of many Alliance and it is a recipe that breeds the negative and self defeatist behaviors we are all familiar with therefore just compounding the problem of the already uphill battle Alliance faces in AV.
- IS AV winnable for the Alliance, it is, but first they need to"
- Want to Win
- Believe they can Win
- Understand the advantages and disadvantages that Horde and Alliance Have and exploit them.
- Understand the mentality of the Horde and use it against them
- Understand that you cannot compare the Horde Approach to Alliance, they are completely two different games requiring two completely different strategies.
- Do Not commit to any one strategy as the only strategy that will be used
- Be willing to adapt on the Fly so pay attention to whats happening and where the horde are positioned
- Think of AV like a Chess game and sometimes you need to sacrifice a pawn or two to gain the advantage on the board.
Some Key tips:
- SH Hill is our only real terrain advantage and Alliance needs to use that to wipe the Hordes initial onslaught. This means grouping at SH.
- Streaming to SFGY off the start or IBGY will fail, Horde are already on top of you before you can pass Balinda. This can be used against them also but has to be done fairly precisely and coordinated with complete cooperation. They love to Zerg whichever side shows face first, therefore leaving the opposite side open.
- By regrouping at SH before the initial encounter, and wiping the Horde as they stream in, Alliance can advance to SFGY, however that being said, if Horde Zerg SFGY, ALliance needs to Zerg IBGY while they are preoccupied. This is a push Pull method that requires patience and timing and may fail several times before success.
- Look for the Gap - When you can pull enough Horde to Either the south side of SHGY or the West side, use that to hit the next objective.
- GEt Galv off the Brain - Trying for Galv or Towers before IBGY is 100% secure is going to fail 99% of the time. Focus GY first ALways.
- Always try and Cap RH before FWGY, if Alliance caps FWGY first, then it pushes Horde to RH and also alerts them for a recall. If you cap FWGY first makes sure to just Zerg RH and not wait until FWGY cap.
- Look for opportunities and use BUnkers like pawns - If they stack in a Bunker, go for Balinda that means they are using resources to defend which creates a man advantage on the field creating a natural gap… We do NOT always have to defend these objectives. They can be sacrificed like a Pawn
- Be Patient as i’ve said, but be aggressive, especially once you secure IBGY, at this point the faster Alliance moves south the better the chances. AV and the inherent advantages the Horde has requires Alliance to secure RH much earlier than Horde need to secure AS.
The net result is, although I am out to WIn, and believe we can, I understand the struggles and frustration that Alliance has, there is merit behind them, and which leads to the attitudes and misconceptions that are currently in play. It would be nice to see AV balanced, however the likelihood remote therefore Alliance is left with three choices
- Continue to surrender before trying
- Start believing winning is possible and build a better team environment that works together and understands the BG enough to compete(i may be reaching lol)
- Quit playing AV and that is not a form of criticism but more of an active protest. This will either motivate Blizz to make changes with empty queues which will also force Horde to concede and support the changes if they want to play Or the BG will just disappear Or we’ll see a potential Factionless PVP environment like the speculation of what could happen in retail.
Cheers!
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It’s why I stopped queuing too. It’s become alliance feeding horde 5k+ honor and getting nothing in return. Why would alliance keep doing that? Give horde 4 hour queues or make them go to WSG where they don’t have a map advantage and an overwhelming win rate.
Alliance premade stopped going for 7m wins after they had their rep.
If you even paid attention you would have noticed this.
After the rep rush was over alliance switched to killing horde at Bal, killing LTs and burning towers.
Horde honestly have zero idea when they were actually up against premades. You all just like to pretend all alliance were in premades.
ive lost multiple times this week, and have had several very close/difficult games where we barely won and still got the same amount of honor as alliance. you guys are clearly adapting, or we are somehow getting worse. but its very obviously not the map.
it was pretty damn easy to tell when it was a premade… minimum ranks, all epic mounts, insane coordination, etc. it wasn’t difficult to determine.
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Unfortunately, that’s not how PvP nor any BG works. You don’t get a participation trophy, merely for showing up, to these fights.