Hey Azi my friend. I have the sentiment too but this is also fault of Blizzard for using the horde to push this kind of narrative where all they do is morally black and the alliance are white-washed while their transgession are justified by the writers or just never touched.
Void elves doing damage to the local wildlife of Zandalar should put them at odds with the nelves and without mention how nobody mention the aggresive politics in taking troll land since the beginning of their civilization without mention Anduin left to rot his people in Duskwood since Legion confirmed they were overrun by old gods cultist.
This is the same in the comics when they try to promote an anti-hero as a heroic figure after he did a horrible act like killing a pregnant woman. Blizzard writers still are in the 90s bad writing phase with a few like Golden that are more fit to write children books rather than fantasy.
Well yea, I just hope we get a chance to free the innocent and heroic souls from the maw and fix the whole death machine so that only disgusting pigs like Sylvanas remain in the maw after we’re done with her (hopefully).
And as a side note, I have no real issues with the Horde doing things to actually attempt to redeem themselves; at least in the eyes of the Kaldorei. However, they need to be in a structurally sound enough position to actually have those acts matter; and that’s unlikely to happen should Ethel get the type of vague “Eye for an Eye” sort of retribution he seems to be suggesting.
The Formation of a Council is a step in the right direction, provided Blizz actually invests in it. It will promote stability, and checks, to ensure less violent outbursts and the Faction taking the shape of a Warchief’s whims. However, this remains to be seen. The current rep roster also does promote a chance for cohesion, stability, and perhaps eventually redemption for the Faction. Gazlowe, Voss, Rokhan, Thrall, Kiro, Talaanji, and Mayla all bring in far more level headed and faction invested perspectives. However, again … it depends on their development … we’ll have to wait in see.
What I don’t want to see however is us skipping the hard work of what is necessary development and perspective; to the Horde PC just working for Alliance reps … and vice versa. I am worried that with Blizz’s track record of preferring to hide the pee-stained sheets, they’ll do just that here.
Blizz used the Horde to commit an atrocity. Even if we were just a tool, we are still complicit in it; especially because Blizz refused to allow us to turn on Sylvie earlier, because it would be inconvenient for her story. Her greatest superpower has always been people conveniently looking the other way whenever she does something shady, so she can get away with it. And she took the Horde for one hell of a joyride, and bailed on a car that she left riddled with feces and garbage … with Blizz showing very few signs they intend to clean up the mess they let her make.
Humans genocided trolls with the help of Medivh and wage war with them. Does that mean the trolls has the right to eliminate the whole humanity? Well if you ask me the answer is yes, they have caused with the elves most of the problems in Azeroth
There is a point to be made here too. By technicality, the Eradar were only allowed to destroy the Orcish peoples and their planet because the Draenei let one of their messes grow insanely out of hand. The Humans and Dwarves have wiped out entire Troll clans throughout the course of Warcraft. The Kaldorei Empire grew upon the bones of likely thousands of Trolls. Then there is the destruction of 80 percent of Azeroth’s landmass to thwart what amounted to a Kaldorei problem they let grow wildly out of control; and the likely 80 percent of World’s population that went with it. That doesn’t even touch on the Arthas issue, which was a Human problem they let spin to such absurd extremes that he actually did wipe out entire civilizations.
Not a single one of these atrocities was ever addressed.
now if i understand this correctly you tell me that horde races not getting their justice damaged the faction.
And even knowing this you say that is okay that we don’t have it.
that doesn’t sound like a convincing argument.
And if we want to talk about not getting justice we had multiple instances of characters not getting spotlight or the treatment that they deserved in getting a story. just a quick one for example, jaina and sylvanas barely had any precense other that having to run from arthas or be killed after a failed 1v1.
The alliance has to deal constantly with this versus the horde.
you noticed next patch right?
and that we “reclaim gilneas and kill nathanos”… in a dream.
just like when he escaped darkshore.
just like when sylvanas escaped multiple times.
just like… i can go all day.
Alright this bothers me.
in the other post i tried to offer a solution for both sides.
and i think that it would be fair that both sides goth 50/50. i am a simple man, that is why i often ask eye for an eye.
but you think that is not okay that we, as alliance get some death themed characters. (btw, we got only 2-3 being that derek… and… maybe bolvar and calia?)
So whats up with that? you think that horde should have all the focus on the shadowlands on top of bfa?
well if we want to talk of things that happened behind camera or things from thousands years ago… hum…
justice for gorak tul?
I think the point I’m making here is that “justice” is something you need to be able to reinforce. As cruel a concept as it is, sometimes vengeance really is a luxury not everyone can afford. This applied to the Troll Empires against Humanity and the Kaldorei. This applied to the MU Orcs against the Eradar and Legion. This applied to Tauren/Yaungol against the Mogu. The Drakarri and Nerubians would not survive as people/species long enough to see vengeance against Arthas. And … now … it applies to the Kaldorei and the Horde.
The Alliance as a whole does not find itself in a sufficient enough position of power to demand anything from the Horde atm. The Horde finds itself in a similar position with the Alliance, should we have had demands. The Alliance may have gotten an influx of demigods and developed reps with their ARs, but in terms of forces the Horde came out way ahead of them with our ARs. The Zandalari; AU Mag’har; Highmountain; Nightborne; and even Vulpera bring an absurd amount of assets to the table for Horde self-defense.
Bluntly, the Horde may have a rep roster riddled with underused, underdeveloped, and underpowered characters … but as a world power BfA really did make some radical changes. The Kaldorei and Alliance can no longer defeat the Horde without suffering catastrophic losses; thus, they cannot impose the justice you desire.
Honestly at this point it doesn’t matter to me anymore what exactly it is. I just don’t see a way where the Night Elves can ever not absolutely despise the horde for what they did, thus there can also never be peace.
I just want something to happen that somewhat concludes the Night Elf story of BfA, that’s my main concern. I don’t just want them to leave the race to rot after they’ve taken everything from them. 8.1 was completely pointless and a punch into the face, so I hope they will atleast give us the option to free the souls of those that died and give them some sort of happy afterlife, not in eternal torment and pain, that’s where Sylvanas belongs.
After that I never want them to touch the Night Elves anymore because they have proven that they can’t do it as long as it doesn’t involve devastating defeats, losses and destruction of “racial pride”.
Also as a side note, I don’t know why they had to kill Saurfang instead of someone that would’ve been satisfying for everyone, e.g. Nathanos.
Well, you might get it. That little Fey-Wilds zone in Shadowlands seems to be made in such a way to give some sort of conclusion to at least Tyrande’s arc; and should the maw be liberated … then all those souls that wrongfully went to it will be free to go where they are supposed to. We’ll just have to wait and see how things go…
As for me, all I want from Shadowlands is for a continuation of Vol’jin’s personal narrative; A massive influx of character development for Voss as a Forsaken leader; Rommath being the one to get development from the presence of Kael; and for the Trolls in general to get some serious TLC. Both Rokhan and Talaanji should be able to thrive in the lands of the dead … I want to see that.
I call this Karma for the nelves. Their civilization besides of looking down others and doing horrible to them, finally got what they deserve, though the nelves players are still holding into their headcanons of being gods among mortals
Human are always racist and think of themselves very highly. I remember a dialogue of Shaw saying that Nathanos wouldn’t never kill SI:7 agents because he was a very noble person back in Vanilla and when his character was expanded we learnt he was always a jerk. Karma hitted lordaeron as well and luckily that civilization stay forgotten and in the dust with their humans habitants
Well he was portrayed as irrational invidual(golden white-washing humans again) despite his people has a similar history as the Amani. But if we never address things that happens years ago or Arthas villany that happened not so long ago, then why not let the destruction of Nelfies and most of the humans stay as a karmic story?
If you want vengeance go to the line pal and wait for 10k of years
What would you recommend to solve this issue? (Edit for tone, since reading this again it could come off as accusatory and I didn’t mean it to.)
I absolutely agree that the Horde player should not have to suffer more from this story, but I also cannot stand the thought of brushing aside and ignoring everything that happened so far.
Whether Blizz meant to or not, they framed the Horde as being equivocal at best or happy at worst to see Teldrassil and its inhabitants burned alive. They took care to include plenty of Horde races in the assault and even the burning itself. They set it up as the Horde, not just Sylvanas, as being part of this atrocity, but now are trying to pretend that only Sylvanas was responsible despite all of their portrayals showing otherwise.
Again, I don’t want to drag the Horde player into the shame ring. They’ve suffered enough from this plot in their own ways. But this needs to be resolved or it’s just going to fester - as this forum has shown.
At this point, there have been so many proposed solutions on these forums that I’m not sure which ones specifically each poster is calling for or objecting to. My own favorite idea so far is to let the Alliance/night elves clear out the remaining Sylvanas loyalists from Ashenvale who helpfully declare themselves to be not part of the current Horde and conveniently label themselves as all the ones who participated in the Burning. Would that be distanced enough from the Horde player for you?
actually the nelfs saved the world more times than any of the other races of azeroth, without them, we would be all dead long ago.
and impressive amount of 5! 6 if you count this xpac.
Being racist is bad? because you say it as if is some sort of crime considering that you are being racist towards them : p.
As for karma… probably,therenas should have killed all the orcs.
Yea true I we especially saw how arrogant and selfish these night elves were when they let the Gilneans get evacuated out of Darnassus first during the burning in the cost of their own lives.
Or when they helped save the world in Legion
Or when they sacrificed their immortality to save the world
Or when they gave the horde Azshara at the end of MoP instead of dismantling them when they had the chance after being constantly attacked by them and having many of their people murdered by them.
Truly horrible people, especially their civilians because they were all involved in whatever bad things a single night elf ever did in wow history. Let’s blame Arthas and Gul’dan on the orcs then because Ner’zhul was also an orc.
Here’s where your premise falls flat on its face, Droité: Blizzard already will not act on potential for future stories for the Horde, at least not the ones you want. That is regardless of Alliance players getting satisfaction “against” the Horde. You yourself are one of the loudest people already announcing the very fact that Shadowlands looks like it will completely disregard the Horde during a time when Azeroth should be picking itself back together again. This will happen whether or not the Alliance does anything to the Horde.
So what are you even advocating for? Forsaken narrative? Keeping Belmont? We’ve just seen for the second time what happens when the Horde keeps around villains and characters prone to downfall. In the end, yes, if Forsaken players picked Forsaken to play villains, they picked wrong, because if they didn’t pick wrong, then it was the rest of the Horde that picked the Horde because of their redeeming qualities that picked wrong if the Horde would allow the Forsaken’s villainy to freely happen while they looked the other way. And all Horde players that picked the Horde because the story of survival against a world against them picked wrong, too, because Anduin will never be a threat to the Horde - and not just that, you are actively asking that no one in the Alliance ever want to be a threat to the Horde.
Full disclosure, I am happy to not fight the Horde any more in Shadowlands. I’d be even happier if Blizzard stated that the Horde was out of all Night Elf lands and will not attack them again. And I’d be happy if the Night Elves leaves the Horde in peace all the same and the Night Elves just tend to their own affairs, as hopefully we will get in Shadowlands.
But for you, same as when you realized what was going to happen in Legion when Sylvanas became warchief, I would say you should follow your own advice:
War of the ancients was their fault and the war of the sands was the only conflict they participated and yet they were defeating grossly until the dragons once again intervened, where in the world are you getting the 6 times? Because in this expansion they didn’t anything but empower the banshee.
Trolls in other hand fought the Aqir at the dawn of the civilization and hunt them down until they were most of them exterminated, did the elves ever did something like this aside of causing the sundering?
Thinking of your kind highly is not racist at all but when you look down to others races you transfor that trait into a bad one. Then again I am just poiting this in the culture of humans and I actually agree this is a common trait in Azeroth civilizations if we consider the amount of bad blood.
Besides Terenas didn’t have any right to decide who lives or dies like the rest of the humans. After we see how morally bankrupt are the lordaeron people as forsakens
Blame on your leaders for clinging in human potential, besides helping the Gilneans is a thing but the Taurens that fought in the war of ancients were left to die at the hands of centaurs? Puff don’t make me laugh
You brough the Legion and never cared to heal the world after the sundering. Sacrificing a tree to destroy a demon is just 1 of the few things your kin did.
Varian did it with convincing your high priestess. Blame human potential and it was not from your own merit
Burning troll villages, being ok with vanishing your own people, following 2 idiots as leaders and were turning a blind eye to Azshara shenanigans until it hit them in their face.
Totally horrible people agree on that with you, see that we can get along after all?
P.D: Arthas is blame of humans and he later killed off Ner’zhul so that means he was never in his thrall after all
Would a show of horde races helping rebuild for the night elves even be taken positively at this point? I feel like people would just take it as Blizzard saying they’re incapable of restoring things themselves and need the help of the horde to do it.
And yet Blizzard has highlighted the victims at Teldrassil in Shadowlands. Unlike your attempts to dismiss them as unextraordinary in light of all collective deaths, Blizzard went out of its way to emphasize them specifically at Blizzcon and in even their own summaries of their presentations.
And with the Darkshore Warfront officially having been won by the Alliance, and with the emphasis on only the Gilneans giving significant support to the Night Elves there at, and paired with the fact that the Night Elf army that was going to be sent down to Silithus was intended to counter the entire Horde army that had been gathered together seemingly to also head to Silithus before it made its feint into the War of the Thorns - a war in which the Horde lost more soldiers than the Night Elves lost fighters - I would dispute this notion of yours as far as canon goes.
It would show as a sign of good will from the horde and considering that there are barely any night elves left, it makes sense for them that they need the help of others.
Not that it will happen but it would be a good first step.
I just either want:
Revenge and hatred against the horde from the night elves and justice for the fallen
or:
The horde actually feeling regret for their actions and making up for it
one of those needs to happen though otherwise the story doesn’t make sense.