"If you don't like it, don't use it"

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
866

I agree. People want fast groups. You get those and the gear comes easy.

I think the Esportification of WoW did more to harm the community than easier grouping options. You get people together good things can happen - it can go the other way too but thats just life.

LFD is just a tool. The tool is only as good as the people using it. Its what you make of it. You can have negative experiences or you can have very positive ones. I know I did - found some great guildies in LFD.

The downside is it can be abused just like anything else and if thats the case then you know its gonna happen. You take the good with the bad and move on with your day.

It all went south one day because people became very reliant on these tools instead of just incorporating it with a more fleshed out routine.

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867

Bump because i want this to reach 1k replies.

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868

If the rewards are completely irrelevant then no problem with removing it, right?

I know you already said you don’t have a problem with a LFD with the extra rewards removed. So you and I don’t disagree.

There’s obviously some who really want to fight to keep these supposedly irrelevant rewards however. Why is that? So far the only argument I heard that specifically addresses this is “because the original LFD has these rewards and I want authentic experience.” I think I know your stance on this view.

Removing the extra rewards would not be gatekeeping alts/returning players from catchup gear either, because the dungeons themselves still drop the same badges/loot/etc. My only beef is the extra rewards that come from queuing LFD.

Is there something inherently wrong with having LFD that is a queue-able group-forming tool only, that didn’t grant extra rewards?

869

Definitely. I think we are on the same page if the rewards stay as 2 quests given in Dal there’s no issue. And you can spam LFD all you want with no bonus for using LFD.

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870

Why not add an NPC that gives u the quest for extra badges?

Like the daily normal and heroic dg in TBC

871

Yea I think that’s a fine compromise. I don’t have a problem with that.

872

Add an NPC for what? There are already daily quest NPCs in Dalaran.

873

Badges are irrelevant anyway.

It’s all catch up gear for alts.

Mains use very little of it and replace all of it.

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874

Pretty sure there will be Emblems of Heroism (5 man) and Emblems of Valour (Raid).

Ulduar has Valour become the 5 man currency and the current tier raid currency becomes Conquest.

875

If it’s irrelevant anyway, then there is no need for LFD to award any extra irrelevant rewards.

I am also not gatekeeping alts/returning players from gear or rep or anything, because doing the dungeons themselves will still grant loot/badges/XP/gold. I just don’t think LFD needs to grant any extra rewards.

These rewards while irrelevant to you, and probably to me too since I have no life, are obviously still relevant for some people. Otherwise they wouldn’t be fighting to keep it. They would say whatever, remove it, don’t remove it, don’t care, it’s irrelevant. If I remember correctly I think you said that too. That you don’t care if it’s removed. So ultimately you and I don’t disagree.

The reason I still care is because the rewards are, as explained in the previous paragraph, still relevant for some people. Those “some people” are people that I could be drawing from to pug with, outside of LFD.

I am only talking about the “if you don’t like it don’t use it” statement here. This statement is more likely to be true if I have more people available to draw from to pug with, outside of LFD. I would have more people available to do that with, if fewer people are drawn away towards LFD by these extra rewards.

Again it’s completely fine if you think I’m crazy for wanting to pug outside of LFD, therefore it doesn’t matter if my ability to do that is negatively impacted. But that is an argument that runs contrary to “if you don’t like it don’t use it”, which implies that my ability to do that is not negatively impacted at all by LFD.

I guess I should just ask if you see anything wrong with a LFD that worked just like BG queue, where you can queue and form groups for you, but no extra rewards? We don’t get extra badges or honor just for queueing at the battlemaster. I think we are really on the same page but are just nitpicking over some things, and that’s probably my fault.

876

You mean the catch up badge gear is relevant to people who are behind?

Actually insightful…

We all do as it makes 0 sense and seems like a bait argument.

I think the badges or rewards are actually irrelevant, badges have an expiration date.

For instance phase 1 Fire mage bis which is what im playing you keep 1 badge item and its the trinket, there is no bis from any badge rewards.

Pre raid bis has 3 items for badges, 1 being the bis trinket.

So yes my stance is badges dont matter you will be flooded with them by playing anyway, even in TBCC this hunter has almost 3 stacks of badges with nothing to spend them on.

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877

This. This is the whole point.

It’s supposed to be obvious that the extra badge rewards of LFD IS relevant. To some people.

Therefore, if the reward is relevant, then it follows that those people who find this reward relevant, will be drawn away from me being able to pug with them. That then hurts my ability to pug. If you agree with this, which you obviously do, then you can’t say that LFD does not impact my ability to pug (“if you don’t like it don’t use it.”)

I’m not baiting I’m just explaining my perspective. I haven’t attacked anybody, accused them of trolling, accused them of baiting, posted a bunch of clown emojis, or anything. I’ve been calmly explaining my perspective throughout. I think people can respectfully disagree with each other.

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878

Because you saying you don’t want to use it sounds insane and most would like an actual reason why.

You can premade a group.

You can find people on your server or your guild

You can then que into a random for badges or que specific heroics to target pre raid gear.

It is mind blowing to say well it does allow me to do what I want but I don’t want to use it for reasons.

Them removing the incentive is in bad taste, I got my badges and gear I don’t need heroics anymore I am now out of your pool of people and LFD pool of people. I no longer have a reason to do dungeons.

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879

Because yes, if I have a full group of friends already, no problem.

But if I don’t have a full group already, which is likely to be the majority of the time, then my ability to fill out the rest of the group is diminished by LFD, because many people who I can draw from to completely pre-made, are lured away by LFD.

More people are going to be lured away if there are extra rewards associated. With extra rewards the LFD tool will have a greater negative impact on me.

Remove those extra rewards, and I think the advantages of LFD then outweighs the disadvantages. I will live with the downsides it causes me and others like me because I see the overall good it does to the game.

880

Except that you can just use LFD and get them back :slight_smile:

So win win, your ability to form groups isn’t changed and people pugging have a better experience. As you said the people you would otherwise get from chat are in LFD so it’s not like they are gone.

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881

That’s a different argument from, if you don’t like LFD don’t use it. Since it ends with me using it. Which is what I’m focusing on in this thread.

If I don’t have a full group already and I want to fill the group without using LFD, it’s simply a fact that I will have fewer people to do that with. Therefore it’s not a good argument to say you don’t have to use it if you don’t like it; I say: but if I don’t use it, what I want to do will now be harder, not impassible, but harder; and the response is, if you just use it then what you want to do won’t be harder at all.

It’s fine to say “if you don’t use it, yes what you wanted to do will be harder, but it’ll be OK because of XYZ”. I agree with this actually so that’s why I’ve said several times I am for LFD without the extra rewards. If I were asked whether I prefer LFD or no LFD, I would actually say yes I would prefer LFD be in the game if those extra rewards are removed.

It’s not a good argument to say “if you don’t use it, this thing you want to do won’t be harder at all.” Also I don’t see why people should resort to using this bad argument when there are many actually good alternatives.

I think others have already tried to explain why they prefer to fill out their groups without using LFD. I don’t ask anyone to agree with these reasons, because I feel that when it comes to a matter of personal preference, there’s not a right or wrong answer. I am just asking that they recognize that different people value different things and to accept that I may value them even if they can’t see why.

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882

Right but what that comes down to is that the people you are pulling from chat now want to use LFD. It’s not the rewards that are motivating that switch it’s that LFD is simply a better system for them.

So sure remove the rewards for spamming LFD, you won’t see any real difference in who is using LFD vs chat.

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883

Yeah, I agree, if the rewards are completely irrelevant to everybody, no problem with removing it, as you’ve said previously.

If the rewards are still relevant for some people, then those people will be drawn from the pool I wish to draw from over towards LFD. I think ultimately people don’t disagree with this, because Manuredps snarkily said to me “actually insightful…” when I pointed that out—that the extra rewards, while not relevant to me and him and probably you, are still relevant to some people.

Putting in LFD without the extra rewards cover both of those possibilities. Either it’s irrelevant to everybody and no harm in not including it. Or it is still relevant to some people, in which case removing the extra rewards will then lessen the negative impact on me. That’s a win-win, right?

884

It’s because it an easier system, as it’s more convenient. There are more vectors to decision-making in MMORPG’s than “better” or “worse”. Easier does not always also mean better.

If we used your definition, it’s also “better” for me or Carmenae too, despite disliking the feature, except that’s the entire point…we don’t think it is, and the logic for why we don’t think so is applicable to every player. You’re doing exactly what Camenae noted above; you’re just blatantly arguing as if there is no conceivable downside to RDF.

“Better” is the subjective vector that you nor I have control over beyond our personal opinions, and our opinion is that it is not better because the direction it takes the game is down a road that makes the game worse eventually, and it’d be nice to see a WOTLK that opted to not go down that road.

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885

There are a number of ways that LFD is objectively better. Simply having access to a larger pool of players makes it objectively better for people on small realms or for low level dungeons. For DPS not having to stare at a chat screen or add on because if they blink they miss the opportunity is objectively better.

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