"If you don't like it, don't use it"

[Mavelock-grobbulus]

I don’t remember anyone claiming LFD was the problem. The one thing both sides of this argument can wholly agree on is LFR was the main problem.

[Tuskamus-area-52 (Tuskamus)]

@Zipzo-atiesh

Essentially, it means you are dismissing a criticism of a thing due to a perceived bias

There isn’t enough ink in the universe to connect those dots. No one is dismissing the criticism, they are simply saying you have a choice. You are attacking the motives of a poster instead of evaluating the content of their post. That is called an

Argumentum Ad Hominem

Ad hominem

[Manuredps-benediction]

I wish i was smart.

[Riger-arugal]

@Drain-windseeker

Realms that need it have it. Realms that do not need it are fine.

I’m onboard with that. Someone raised Oceanic servers as a case in point. I think Blizzard could basically cross server the oceanic servers as it is a small pool anyway and merge low pop us servers.

[Beaupeep-draka (Beaupeep)]

@Mavelock-grobbulus

I don’t remember anyone claiming LFD was the problem.

Then you haven’t been watching this forum for the last few years.

@Mavelock-grobbulus

LFR was the main problem.

LFR came later, and was an additional problem along the same vein, yes.

[Manuredps-benediction]

LFR is irrelevant to the game

[Beaupeep-draka (Beaupeep)]

@Riger-arugal

I think Blizzard could basically cross server the oceanic servers as it is a small pool anyway and merge low pop us servers.

To be fair, with the small number of servers in Classic, I’m not sure why they didn’t connect them anyway.

At least in the same time zones.

Edit: and obviously separating them between PvE and PvP.

[Elorael-remulos]

@Mavelock-grobbulus

I don’t remember anyone claiming LFD was the problem.

You clearly “weren’t there” then.

The same arguments today were made when LFD was announced to be cross-realm. They came true.

LFR made the problem infinitely worse, and WoW Retail may have retained more community if they hadn’t introduced it, but LFR came about because people who’d lost all their community through the effects of LFD were demanding the same method of “I don’t need friends, just buttons” for raiding.

[Mavelock-grobbulus]

@Beaupeep-draka

LFR came later, and was an additional problem along the same vein, yes.

Here is what I remember from Wrath. My guildmates that I downed the lich king with. Even though most dont play anymore I still have everyone of there realids on friend list. I won’t remove them. Guilds are where the real connections are made. I couldn’t tell you who was on my server, I can’t tell you what guilds were on my server. I can remember everyone from Utopian Nightmare on Dawnbringer. I remember what they did for a living and I remember many funny moments we had together. These connections were brought about from Raiding and guilds and no where did server community come into play

[Elorael-remulos]

@Riger-arugal

Someone raised Oceanic servers as a case in point. I think Blizzard could basically cross server the oceanic servers as it is a small pool anyway and merge low pop us servers.

Remulos doesn’t need any cross server, given that Terrocone is still in the 70-130g per stack price range (and impossible to farm). Every Oceanic PVE player is already there, and the community isn’t ‘mega’ because there simply aren’t that many players, but it’s sufficient that a realm-locked LFD would do wonders while keeping the server cohesive (and the Discord spicy).

The PVP servers could probably be connected together happily without issue.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Beaupeep-draka

@Vrrqlol-stormrage

I just think it was in original wrath so it needs to be in wrath classic.

Not a good reason to re-add it.

However, a good reason to NOT add it, is it is the thing that is most cited to be the “fall of WoW into Retail”.

If you are a person that doesn’t like the path that Retail is currently on now, you shouldn’t be advocating for one of the main things that helped it get there.

The reason to add it are the same reasons it was added in wrath. Conditions which once again exist not in wrath and that blizzard apparently won’t be doing anything else about.

[Elorael-remulos]

I will also argue that the “fall of WoW into Retail” had far more factors than LFD.

The “Death of the social fabric of WoW in Retail” definitely started with LFD and was accelerated with LFR.

[Beaupeep-draka (Beaupeep)]

@Ziryus-pagle

The reason to add it are the same reasons it was added in wrath.

Then you’re going down the same path. Which, as I understand it, was NOT the path people wanted to go down with Classic.

If you really want a “better” version of WoW, LFD is antithetical to that vision.

@Elorael-remulos

I will also argue that the “fall of WoW into Retail” had far more factors than LFD.

I agree, but it’s known that LFD is one of those things, so keeping it out is a “step in the right direction”.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Beaupeep-draka

Then you’re going down the same path. Which, as I understand it, was NOT the path people wanted to go down with Classic.

If you really want a “better” version of WoW, LFD is antithetical to that vision.

LFD was fine, people like to scape goat it for other lower level issues.

That said I don’t really care if blizzard wants to go with a better solution to solve the problems LFD introduces. But LFD is definitely better than doing nothing.

[Egwyn-arugal]

How much FF14 have you played. Be honest.

[Elorael-remulos]

@Beaupeep-draka

so keeping it out is a “step in the right direction”.

I disagree on keeping the “whole thing” out. There are plenty of other games with an LFD style system and a strong social fabric.

But I do think it’s not an “all or nothing” affair, and that removing the cross realm aspect (and using Connected Realms to boost lower population realms) would actually increase the “server fabric” by randomly matching people who can then go further outside the dungeon with each other.

[Beaupeep-draka (Beaupeep)]

@Elorael-remulos

I disagree on keeping the “whole thing” out.

Sorry, I should have said “in its current form”.

I agree with an altered version.

[Blooddrunk-grobbulus]

Whataboutism logical fallacy. Virtually nobody who is against lfd supports any of the things you listed. They are all bad for the community, LFD would make it even worse.

Also find it pretty ironic that a guy coming from a speed running guild filled with whales who spend tons of real life money on illicit gold is criticizing botting and gdkps. I hear your guild even has a dedicated gold seller who sells to your members. Quit trying to pretend like you’re against any of those things you listed, you are part of the problem.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Elorael-remulos

Not only that but they would be forced to

Yeah, I wasn’t being facetious. I agree that you end up forced.

@Zerthus-illidan

You’re grasping really hard. You actually just don’t have to use it.

I’m not grasping anything I’m just pointing out a flaw in a commonly used argument. It’s more like objective observation.

@Tuskamus-area-52

There isn’t enough ink in the universe to connect those dots.

It’s a literal direct description of what people are doing in this context. Dismissing people’s criticism because they can just “leave” or not use it.

I’m not attacking anyone. What is your definition of “attacking”?

@Riger-arugal

I’m open to compromise though - such as an LFD without xrealm. I suspect that people who feel more passionately about it probably don’t want a compromise though, and that’s fair enough too.

Yeah, me too.

Most of my conjecture comes from a place of “What Blizzard will probably do and what they would be most likely to compromise on”.

I don’t like RDF, but I think it’s reasonable that it would get added at some point down the line for parity with the original WOTLK.

However, since the #nochanges ship sailed, I figure it’s worth evaluating changes through a different lens than I used to, as per the advice of Ziryus and etc.

So…as a result, here’s a change I kinda like and wouldn’t mind seeing WOTLK exist as (without RDF). Now all the sudden I’m the bad guy for taking their advice…kinda messed up imo…

[Shanxi-moon-guard]

@Shygirl-grobbulus

What data is available to measure the desires of the community?

Blizz has their own player statistics on LFD, they know its not right for Classic wrath.