If there’s one or two things to Retcon it would be Tyrande and Malfurian Surviving this whole War or Delaryn Summermoon dying.
Ok if I retcon the Burning of Teldrassil. I would have Sylvanas ether kill Malfurian on the Spot because Saurfang was too weak or Just kill both of them. One Malfurian because He represents the Leadership of the Night Elf People and Saurfang for being too weak to even kill the Guy.
Also Delaryn Summermoon Surviving along with Tyrande where they try to rescue as many of their people as they can while Malfurian holds back the horde but fails. So of course Sylvanas Touches Teldrassil but not alot of Night Elves would have died on that day maybe some or half but not alot of them.
I think Malfurian Surviving the Whole War kind of ruins the Writing of bringing in some Depth to the Faction War Story.
Because basically her memory is fixed on the isolationist uncaring bastard that built the Greymane Wall, cutting off people from his own kingdom and leaving desperate refugees outside to die.
One thing that Varian and Anduin DO deserve credit for is the death of that Greymane and his rebirth into a sincerely better person.
Genn and the Gilneans don’t have to believe in Elune to see Malfurion’s miraculous survival as a reason to stay united. Again, Sylvanas and Saurfang agree. Whether they are right or not doesn’t mean that wasn’t their thought process.
You’re trying to change the goalpost from ‘this wasn’t her plan’ to ‘it was a bad plan’. Again, inflicting a wound that would divide the Alliance was the plan.
And yet they both are aware of the significance after Malfurion is let go.
Doing some headcanon here. We have text at the start saying, ‘we need to inflict a wound that won’t heal.’ Then more text from both of them saying the same thing near the end.
This was my point, with that “wound” being taking Teldrassil, not Malfurion’s death.
I do not believe Sylvanas was thinking about her plan any more when she started rambling her internal monologue about wounds that cannot heal. She was focusing on the Night Elves, as you yourself quoted:
If you believe Sylvanas’ sudden panic that the Alliance would unite around that infers that she no longer believed Genn would split off from the Alliance to pursue Gilneas than you have exactly that. Inference. No different than my inference that Sylvanas was no longer thinking clearly.
Headcanon? That was what the entire first part of A Good War was all about. And the follow up of the Battle for Lordaeron and “Old Soldier” where Saurfang continuously tried to commit suicide by cop Alliance.
And that wound (by their estimation) was prevented by Malfurion miraculously surviving. Taking Teldrassil was just a means to an end. You keep getting bogged too down into the literal aspects when the characters themselves are very clear on this point.
This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal.
A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.
The specifics about Genn are less important conjecture behind the idea of trying to split of the Alliance overall through said crippling wound. Hence why ‘the story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause’ is directly in opposition to that.
Except for the fact she directly thinks about her wound plan. And Saurfang also directly thinks about it.
My claim is only that the original plan was ‘inflict a wound’. And that Sylvanas and Saurfang both think Malfurion’s miraculous survival would prevent that. You can infer what you want from those facts. But the plan was the same and Malfurion’s survival is agreed by both characters to get in the way of that.
Headcanon that his ‘severe depression and PTSD’ made him accept blame not his. When he’s merely repeating the plan already said.
The specifics are absolutely important, because without Genn Sylvanas has no plan to split the Alliance. Taking Teldrassil hostage only splits the Alliance is Sylvanas was right that Genn would leave the Alliance rather than help take Teldrassil back before Gilneas.
That’s the entirety of Sylvanas’ plan. She never states any other way that taking Teldrassil would split the Alliance. She just devolves into emotional rampant thoughts about the Night Elves without any further thought into how this would have “bled, festered, decayed, and rotted the Alliance from the inside out.”
Saurfang was entirely falling into a shame spiral and buying into Sylvanas’ emotional abuse. That was the entire conclusion to A Good War:
War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win. Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.
And so . . .
She had sent a message. This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok‐tar ogar.
Darnassus would not be the last city to burn. The loss of life on both sides would tower over this atrocity. And it would all rest on his shoulders. Every moment would be a nightmare.
Sylvanas turned back toward the World Tree, watching it burn. Saurfang made himself watch the flames consume city and citizens alike. He would not dishonor himself further by turning away.
The screams continued. They reminded him of Shattrath. He had loved the sound, then. Smoke filled the air, reminding him of Stormwind, of racing through the streets as buildings burned all around him, finding cowering humans and butchering them as they begged for their lives. He had loved the slaughter, then.
And he had loved this war, too, hadn’t he?
Saurfang did not move for hours, not until the screams faded and the flames had burned themselves down to embers. Before him stood a smoking husk that had once been a great civilization. Inside him was a feeling of despair, a feeling of shame. There was no haze of corruption now to soften the horror.
Saurfang would remember this moment in his dreams forever. He would relive this shame, and all the new ones to come, over and over again.
You have led your Horde in the service of death, Malfurion had said.
How could Saurfang face the soldiers he had led into this war? How could he explain what they had done?
He couldn’t. He would never know how.
But the burden would be his, always, until his dying day.
As Saurfang turned away, he hoped that day would come soon.
Yes she does. The Night Elves being unsure what to do. Fearful to act in-case of retribution. The other nations going to defend their own lands. General indecision about acting. Gilneans were mentioned as conjecture for a possible point years down the line. “It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.” “And even if the Alliance agrees to retake Darnassus … The Gilneans!”
You can be ashamed and also accept blame that is yours.
If you want your enemy to bleed to death, you inflict a wound that cannot heal.
This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal.
A wound that cannot heal. Sylvanas needed to think of a new way to inflict one.
But she was right. A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.
Sylvanas specifies exactly what the Night Elves would do:
“[T]he night elves want more than anything? They will demand that the Alliance help retake their conquered home.”
Which only requires taking Teldrassil, not killing Malfurion, as Saurfang lays out in that conversation:
“They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.”
You may want to quote that entire section:
“It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.”
“You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”
“They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs . The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. “And even if the Alliance agrees to retake Darnassus . . . The Gilneans!”
Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”
Her entire plan depends on Genn demanding Gilneas over Teldrassil. Her plan did not require Malfurion to be dead, and if anything would have been aided in Sylvanas believing his being another voice arguing against the others for Anduin’s attention.
It’s funny that you were so quick to call out “moving the goal post,” yet here you are moving it for Sylvanas, except to an abstract place where a goal can’t even actually be seen.
The blame that he was focusing on for even going to war, not for sparing Malfurion:
That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win.
Victimizing himself to appealing to Sylvanas’ authority:
Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.
Sylvanas having turned his beliefs into a mockery of what they were:
She had sent a message. This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok‐tar ogar.
Blaming himself for all the losses of life, even those that hadn’t happened yet:
Darnassus would not be the last city to burn. The loss of life on both sides would tower over this atrocity. And it would all rest on his shoulders. Every moment would be a nightmare.
Punishing himself for Sylvanas’ actions:
Sylvanas turned back toward the World Tree, watching it burn. Saurfang made himself watch the flames consume city and citizens alike. He would not dishonor himself further by turning away.
Ashamed and punishing himself for reveling in war:
The screams continued. They reminded him of Shattrath. He had loved the sound, then. Smoke filled the air, reminding him of Stormwind, of racing through the streets as buildings burned all around him, finding cowering humans and butchering them as they begged for their lives. He had loved the slaughter, then.
And he had loved this war, too, hadn’t he?
Directly describing what he was feeling:
Saurfang did not move for hours, not until the screams faded and the flames had burned themselves down to embers. Before him stood a smoking husk that had once been a great civilization. Inside him was a feeling of despair, a feeling of shame. There was no haze of corruption now to soften the horror.
Saurfang would remember this moment in his dreams forever. He would relive this shame, and all the new ones to come, over and over again.
Blaming himself for what Sylvanas had done:
You have led your Horde in the service of death, Malfurion had said.
How could Saurfang face the soldiers he had led into this war? How could he explain what they had done?
He couldn’t. He would never know how.
But the burden would be his, always, until his dying day.
And suicidal thoughts to conclude it all:
As Saurfang turned away, he hoped that day would come soon.
But the Alliance will not have the strength, not in Kalimdor, not with their fleets.
After which,
“They might try to conquer the Undercity … but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.”
You keep misunderstanding ‘killing Malfurion’ instead of seeing it as ‘Malfurion miraculously surviving’. Which causes this.
The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.
Malfurion’s impossible survival would give them hope. Their wound would heal.
No it does not. You, again, hyper-focused on the particulars of one point of conjecture meant to be years down the road. It does not depend on that.
It required a wound. A wound his death prevented, according to them. They say this repeated times.
You can indulge in your headcanon all you like, Amadis. It hasn’t convinced me. And you can still be ashamed, victimize, and push yourself for things you legitimately are to blame for. Because it was the same plan the entire time.
Malfurion’s death or neutralisation is the key to holding Teldrassil. With him alive those inside would have expectation of liberation. For anyone would know, Malfurion might be able to turn the Tree itself against any that would try to occupy it.
It was your headcanon that the Night Elves wouldn’t know what to do. The following section doesn’t change that she believed that they would, as the section following that section Sylvanas still believes the Night Elves would demand to take Teldrassil back. Let me fix that for you:
This was just Saurfang buying into Sylvanas moving the goal post, which you should understand, since you’re so apt on that fallacy’s use.
I’m going to break down that whole section, too, since that was rather fun, actually. This is Sylvanas’ internal monologue at the beginning of her emotional break down:
To start, sure sounds like genocide, doesn’t it? But seriously, this is just Sylvanas moving the goal post. The plan was never to end the Night Elves as a people, and it was never about the Night Elves losing their leaders, yet here we are with Sylvanas going on about it:
This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people.
This next part is just emotional rambling, as the only way this would have bled the Alliance would have been if Genn left it, leaving Sylvanas with just jumping to conclusions without any reason to believe any of this:
Even the loss of one leader would have been enough to create a tide of despair. The wounds of this battle would have bled, festered, decayed, and rotted the Alliance from the inside out.
The next part is how Sylvanas expects the attack on Undercity and/or the attempt to retake Teldrassil would go:
Anduin Wrynn would have lashed out in a final, desperate war, looking for a miracle, because only a miracle would save them.
And then her thoughts devolve into something not related to how Anduin would behave after Teldrassil was taken, but setting up her own self-chastisement:
But a miracle already had. A miracle granted by the honorable hand of a foolish old orc.
And an overconfident warchief. Best to lay blame where it belonged. This was her mistake as much as Saurfang’s.
And then Sylvanas’ thoughts start to spiral out of control as she starts to panic that she had allowed things to possibly get beyond her:
This conquest of Darnassus would rattle the kaldorei people. They would grieve for their lost, fear for their imprisoned, and tremble at the thought of the Horde ransacking their homes. But they would not fall to despair. Not anymore. Malfurion’s impossible survival would give them hope. Their wound would heal.
Even in this dark hour, they would say, Elune still watches over us.
At this point Sylvanas just starts rambling incoherently and emotionally, like someone having conspiratory thoughts that the world itself was out to get her:
And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow. And she wouldn’t be the only force beyond the Alliance to oppose Sylvanas’s true objective.
Sylvanas’s anger grew cold.
She had known this would happen. It had simply come sooner than expected. That was all.
And even through all this, Sylvanas still was going forward with the plan to take Teldrassil:
She strode toward the shoreline, ignoring the last few skirmishes and the wailing of those unfortunate kaldorei who had been unable to escape Darkshore. She studied the shape of Teldrassil towering above her in the moonslight. Soon, it would be in the hands of the Horde.
“Secure the beach,” Sylvanas said. “Prepare to invade the tree.”
And at this point Sylvanas didn’t even seem to know what her plan even was any more and was in a mental spiral of her own:
A wound that cannot heal. Sylvanas needed to think of a new way to inflict one. There was no turning back.
And you have not shown that the “wounds that cannot heal” are possible without Genn leaving the Alliance. You’re so hyper-focused on that vague phrase of which you can’t actually connect any details to that you don’t see that Sylvanas doesn’t have a plan outside of Genn.
Meaninglessly repeated, as analyzed above. Repeating something several times can be a fallacy in itself:
Proof by assertion , sometimes informally referred to as proof by repeated assertion, is an informal fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction.[1] Sometimes, this may be repeated until challenges dry up, at which point it is asserted as fact due to its not being contradicted (argumentum ad nauseam).[2] In other cases, its repetition may be cited as evidence of its truth, in a variant of the appeal to authority or appeal to belief fallacies.[3]
This fallacy is sometimes used as a form of rhetoric by politicians, or during a debate as a filibuster. In its extreme form, it can also be a form of brainwashing.[1]
Oh, that’s the saddest line anyone can ever give. Are you so self-important that you think convincing you is that goal to anything for anyone? You can enjoy a conversation with people just for the sake of discussing things, you know.
Certainly can, and he does.
But the burning wasn’t, and he blames himself for it, too. If anything, the cinematics he’s given are pretty much a sequence of him finally being able to realize that the burning wasn’t him, but Sylvanas:
Saurfang’s Flashback:
“Old Soldier”: So… You know me? Is that it? What I’ve seen? What I’ve done?
“Lost Honor”: I have given EVERYTHING for the Horde! Bled for it… killed for it… And Sylvanas is destroying it! She will destroy everything!
“Safe Haven”: Do you know? Do you know what she’s done while you’ve been hiding?
That last line, as I’m surprised I haven’t seen more people pointing out, Saurfang might as well have been saying to himself with Thrall as a stand in for a mirror.
A “would that cannot heal” specifically used as a metaphor for, yes, the original plan:
“The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”
That’s the horrible irony of proof by assertion. If you’re going to repeat yourself, the only way to counter that is to repeatedly refute it. And then we’re both just going ad nauseam.
Was never the plan, and matches what I showed before:
Also, thinking upon this more, to be fair, Genn does credit the Night Elves for taking in his people.
See above. Sylvanas had originally expected Malfurion to live and join Tyrande in divide Anduin’s attention with Genn, while Sylvanas had already already assumed she was holding Teldrasssil.
Her plan was fatally flawed in the first place. Blizzard went out of its way to put it into Elegy to say so.
Even worse so if we go by her in-game logic, since azerite started popping out everywhere, and Kul’Tiras ended up way closer to Stormwind than Teldrassil was.
While they would demand Darnassus, they Alliance couldn’t take it (because of lacking ships). That does put them in an unclear position of what to do. Hence why they are hypothetically blocking motions to attack other cities. If it makes you feel better, I can rephrase that the Night Elves would demand Darnassus but, being unable to take it and unsure if they can attack elsewhere without retribution, the Alliance in general would be unclear of how to proceed.
I don’t reference it that often, do I? Anyway, I just see it as the same plan, considering she thinks it to herself.
It gets addressed by the fact that destroying Teldrassil clearly doesn’t get Genn to leave the Alliance. But according to both planners, satisfies their need for a wound. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. To weaken their moral, create inner conflict, working to split them apart in different hypothetical ways. They never give a reason the Dwarves might go back in the original conjecture, but it is still noted as part of their eventually plan for the individual nations to go defend their own lands. (Because it is given as something years down the line.) That’s why Gilneas is clearly not necessary to them.
But to you, that they feel this way about the burning is just evidence they are lying to themselves.
Is this comment a joke? I need to know if you are serious before I address it seriously.
He should blame himself.
Those lines can refer to a number things outside this speculation that he somehow doesn’t blame himself for Teldrassil. The second and third line could as much killing her own troops/raising them or the Lordaeron bomb trap.
I don’t know what the lines are necessarily saying. But it is hardly clear your interpretation is right.
I agree that if we both do not accept each other’s point, there’s no progress. I don’t think either of us has engaged in that fallacy. I can agree to disagree if you want. I don’t think I can convince you at this point.
To be fair the japanese kind of had a similar plan with Pearl Harbor.
Strike the US pacific fleet. Make it so the US is crippled for a time and make the loss so bad that the American people already fighting in europe would not be willing to commit to a war on both sides.
Well they attacked before a formal decleration of war which was just pure fodder for the propaganda machine.
Even the guy that planned and led the attack was skeptical. But it DID happen so what Sylvanas did was not exactly that insane.
It happened in real life.
The lack of ships wouldn’t have deterred them. We know that from the Darkshore Warfront, where the Night Elves demanded taking Darkshore back despite Anduin thinking the Alliance had a lack of resources.
Saurfang laid out that the Night Elves would have opposed any plans to attack the Undercity or Silvermoon because that would put Teldrassil in danger. By their estimations, the Night Elves would have pushed and demanded that Teldrassil be taken back first as a priority before anything else, and in doing so be in disagreement with people Sylvanas expected would demand to march on Undercity right away instead, or take Gilneas back as yet another alternative.
But Sylvanas always believed the Night Elves would always be resolute about taking Teldrassil back. But her plan was based on the notion that other elements of the Alliance would not want to do that first. And then, yes, with that many voices demanding going in different directions, Anduin wouldn’t know what to do, and then Genn and others would pull out of the Alliance to follow their own priorities, but then not actually being able to accomplish those priorities when standing alone and ending up having to concede to the Horde individually.
But the Night Elves would always known what they would have wanted in this projection of Sylvanas’.
Which was moving the goal post again, since the original plan was for the Alliance to not be able to come attack them at all in the first place:
“It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.”
“You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”
“They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs . The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.”
This sudden idea that Sylvanas’ plan was actually to get Anduin to attack in a bumbling way was pulled out of nowhere from Sylvanas’ mind and was never part of the original idea.
I believe Genn is vital to Sylvanas’ plan because of something Drahliana pointed out:
Sylvanas was around for the first splintering of the Alliance, when Quel’thalas left and then Gilneas and Stromgarde followed after. I believe what she sees Genn as is the first domino, and the Gilneans leaving would be the push the other members would take to leave as well after, like Quel’thalas had been after the Second War. She didn’t bother coming up with a reason for why the Dwarves or anyone else would leave when she had expectations that Genn would be the instigator to the Alliance splintering again.
Even if it turned out she was wrong.
Definitely what I feel, yes. Made to feel more so when the burning didn’t break the Night Elves, which Sylvanas was also lying to herself about. “Can’t I?” No, turns out she couldn’t.
I will grant that Anduin did indeed go to attack the Undercity without proper planning, and that he did make it through only thanks to the miracles of Alleria and Jaina. But once again, that was never the plan, when the plan was to put the Alliance in a situation where they could not attack the Horde at all. There’s no reason to believe Sylvanas would believe that Malfurion surviving would change Genn’s mind about taking the fight to Gilneas and Lordaeron first. In this case, I wouldn’t say she was lying to herself, she just wasn’t thinking clearly and had just completely forgotten what her goal even was because she was so upset. And then ironically she herself ruined her original plan by removing taking Teldrassil back as an option at all and leaving “attack Undercity” as the only voice left and uniting the Alliance. When uniting the Alliance was the fail condition of her plan.
Not a joke, but rather I was irked by the “It hasn’t convinced me” line, as people have been using that from time to time as if that announcement diminishes my points. I’m not here to convince anyone. I’m just here to discuss the lore with people, and the “change my mind” meme has started to exhaust me. That’s not what I’m here for.
The burning was not his plan, nor did he give the command. He tried to get the Horde to stop. He should acknowledge what he did, and he does, but to blame himself for the burning unfairly detracts from Sylvanas’ responsibility for it, which is exactly what she wanted by exactly trying to dump blame on him.
That is always the case with interpretation. But that’s what I’m seeing. A slow progression from self-blame to putting blame where it actually belongs and finally being able to pick himself up passed the self-blame and actually do something in response to the wrongs committed instead of just hiding away or trying to kill himself for not being able to handle things any more.
To be fair, I don’t think you’ve really presented an alternative case to believe in. You’ve at best said “her plan was a wound that could never heal” without actually addressing how hopelessness would actually spread from the Night Elves to the rest of the Alliance. Which is especially difficult now in the present when we know that the Night Elves don’t even become hopeless themselves, let alone it spreading to the rest of the Alliance.
I am not an unconvinceable person, and I am always willing to admit when I’m wrong. Even by people who have frustrated me. Carmageddon has a notion that the Forsaken see the Alliance as an existential threat that I honestly did not believe and argued against for a long length of a thread, but I did have to concede when I remembered that Genn screamed out “Monsters! You have no place in this world!” (Of course now Genn’s changed since then and will even be working with the Horde in Nazjatar). And even Veloran - who lives off in his own little world on which I don’t find the air there to be very breathable so I don’t like visiting it any more - was right that a peace treaty existed between the Alliance and the Horde during Warlords of Draenor and I admitted as such when he found lore reference to the treaty outside of Ashran.
That is to say, I generally do not agree to disagree, because that’s just the death of a conversation right there. I prefer people actually discuss what they think if people can have a good time discussing it. You know, barring people being toxic, which is the opposite of a good time.
You know what’s the craziest part about that? People around here act like the Night Elves should never forgive the Horde and that peace is impossible. When Japan is one of the U.S.'s closest allies and partners now. My brother lives over there now, and I visit him whenever I can.
I think the difference is both sides were at war and a stalement.
Cities were being flattened all the time. The only thing unique about the nukes was that all it took was one plane and one bomb instead of thousands.
If the US, say had conquered Japan and THEN decided to nuke/chemically attack half or even two thirds of the entire country.
That is when it will be an unforgiveable sin.
The situations are completely different and no one is under any illusion how horrific the japanese army was.
They did not care about their people, they weaponized them and would rather kill them or have them suicide so they do not fall into enemy hands because it would be dishonorable to Bushido.
There is very little comparison besides some minor details between the WoW and this WW2 pacific theater.
