That’s fair.
Also a fair distinction.
I don’t think it’s impossible, though. Like, Saurfang and his rebels could come help the Night Elves take Ashenvale back as at least a start towards atoning for what they did. Though, I don’t expect that from Blizzard. But I do expect them to just make the Night Elves be all for peace one way or another.
If Saurfang wanted to make amends he would have either stopped the burning or lead a rescue squad to save as many people as he could.
Blizzard decided he will not do that.
Instead he would meakly follow Sylvanas.
Just because you feel sorry does not give you any right to forgiveness.
No sir.
The only defense to this notion that Night Elves will go back to the status quo can only be achieved by two statements.
That is all.
There is no logical argument in any sane world that if Tyrande had the power would not only retake Ashenvale for the third time from the Horde but also permanently remove that threat from Orgrimmar.
He both yelled for the Horde soldiers to stop firing the catapults in A Good War and tried to let Lor’danel civilians go free in the in-game event. It wasn’t that Blizzard decided that he would not. Blizzard just decided he would not succeed at the time.
That’s what I expect, though. I don’t expect anything sane or logical. I just expect Blizzard to sweep it under the rug and not address it again.
I am afraid of that as well.
I think for the sake of discussion let us simplify the events and THE EMOTIONS IT EVOKES.
read that bold part. Make sure you get it straight before reading any further.
If we wanted to simplify the emotions that this story evoked would be witnessing an abusive relationship that leads to trajedy.
The woman, Night Elves, forgives and gives chances multiple times and ignores the warning signs until finally the partner, The Horde, commits rape.
There is shame, there is pity, there is anger, there is sadness and so much more.
The abusive partner goes into councling. Tries to change. Makes some sacrifices.
Whatever.
Whether a TV show, a Book, a movie or whatever else I think everyone here will have absolutely ZERO sympathy for that scum and cheer as she goes to the authorities, throw him in a hole and move on with her life.
Not forgive him.
Not go back to the same relationship.
And that is where we are in this story.
Hence why I am so done with this story. All I can do is keep a sense of humor.
The sub time will run out eventually and there are other games to play.
That’s definitely not a fair comparison. The Horde and the Night Elves were never in a committed relationship with fond emotions that can be taken advantage of. The Horde didn’t even stop attacking them after the Battle of Mount Hyjal, despite that they were all supposed to be in a Grand Alliance together. Hell, in Elegy Malfurion thought upon how the Night Elves expected this to happen eventually, they just thought they would be prepared for it instead of being taken by surprise.
The status of the Night Elves was one of uneasy neighbors involved in trade.
Their relationship was abusive in nature.
I said I will simplify the EMOTIONS that have been evoked. I was not making a comparison.
Yeah, but that’s very different from a relationship where someone is taking advantage of their partner’s love for them to abuse them move. Those aren’t the same emotions.
They are the same emotions for the audience.
At the end you are watching a dysfunctional relationship until one party does the unthinkable.
And as the viewer you witness the fallout.
I don’t really agree there, either, since I definitely always thought it was something Sylvanas would do.
More it was something I didn’t believe Blizzard would do. Even specifically argued once that Blizzard would never touch Teldrassil. And while gameplay wise I was right, lore wise I was obviously dead wrong.
Then let us agree to disagree on it.
I see Sylvanas and the Horde as one and the same.
Her actions are mirrored on all of them.
Any argument regarding “but I was just following orders” falls on deaf ears.
I definitely don’t agree with that. The Horde are widely varied, even within each of their different people.
This I do agree with, though. That’s no out.
And yet they have no agency and follow her.
In all the questing there is not a single moment of redemption or self-reflection in this faction.
That is definitely bad. And why I’m not playing any of my Horde alts until I can level boost passed the entirety of BfA. But that’s Blizzard ruining how the Horde is presented, not actually defining the Horde as being as horrible as Sylvanas is. And unfortunately Blizzard will shoehorn in that fact in just as poorly as they ignored it in the first place.
I play the Horde because of gameplay reasons.
I play both sides to get the full picture, I have done so for years.
The Horde has been ruined since MoP. They have no lore value to me.
They aren’t consistent, they have no redeeming features narratively.
If you asked me to describe them in one word it would be hypocrisy.
That is why all this honor horde stuff makes me laugh.
Quite frankly. They just aren’t interesting past their premise.
Nothing unique about them. It varies from Alliance lite to homocidal maniacs.
I did until BfA as well, but luckily Youtube has made it rather unnecessary.
I loved Vol’jin, and he renewed the Horde for me, so I’d say that their worst decision was replacing him with Sylvanas.
Eh… I like Elves? So Blood Elves work for me, I guess? The playable Nightborne models are so terrible I can’t play them, though, which is extremely disappointing.
I said the Horde.
As an entity.
Character’s themselves are a different subject.
But the Horde disease infects these characters too.
Baine is outraged over one forsaken and not a single word on Teldrassil? Screw him.
I would have left him in Orgrimmar.
See edit above about Blood Elves. I’m mostly there for their aesthetics.
And Goblins. I love Goblins.
And if Vulpera were a Horde Allied Race, I’d play one so fast.
I don’t mean to say it would of. Just that that is what they theorized in their discussion. That their inability to strike back (whether or not it was true) would play into the situation. Which is why the whole weakened navies seemed significant to them.
Here is an example of why I consider it the same plan. Maybe it will outline the difference more as I see it. Say I go, ‘I’m going to exploit money from Joe.’ At first I try blackmailing him but, after some events, it turns out identity theft is the only way that works (he’s resisting said efforts. To me, the plan is the same (exploit money from Joe) with differing details (I’ve gone from blackmail to identity theft).
In this way, I see their plan as always being ‘drive a wedge between the Alliance’. The specifics of that went from ‘capture Teldrassil’ to ‘burn Teldrassil’. All this might just be semantics of what we consider ‘the plan’.
I agree Sylvanas misread Genn. And probably for the reasons you give. I just consider her subsequent actions (burning of Teldrassil) as evidence otherwise in regards to how vital he was.
Delaryn seems pretty broken at this point. But yeah, I just feel like their personal thoughts were meant to be genuine in those instances.
No offense intended, then. And my apologies.
I just consider his actions leading up to the situation as making him as culpable. He shouldn’t have agreed to this war, helped plan it, helped execute it. I would say he’s not fully responsible, at least.
I agree he’s certainly seeming to take on more responsibility for what happened. Just not necessarily shaking blame for the burning.
Mainly because my point was that it was her plan, not that it would have worked. But in theory it probably would probably have gone like it is now. Dark Rangers siding with the Forsaken. Tyrande going off seeking dangerous, ancient rituals. Her being upset that Anduin isn’t sending as much aid to Darkshore because he is invested in Arathi and Zandalar. And that this division would make them the worse off than working united.
Again, not that it would work. Just that it followed the same thought process.
For the record, I don’t mean to imply that. I’m just at the point where I don’t know how much more useful comments I can contribute.
Hope you have fun because frankly regarding Horde, their narrative, their justifications and their value overall in this story.
The Horde are now just a means to end for me for gameplay purposes.
My characters could be switched to an Ooze and I could not care any less.
If I don’t agree with the exact wording, I’m still with Allerya on this one. Sylvanas may not be a fitting representative of Horde culture as a whole, but nearly every culture in the Horde has some propensity to commit heinous atrocities (except maybe the Tauren).
Twice now, the Night Elves have suffered at the hands of the Horde, Honor Horde and Pragmatic Horde alike. The only difference is the Honor Horde preferred smaller, personal atrocities, like skinning individual Night Elves, while the Pragmatic Horde went big, with genocide.