We know he had plans against the night elves. How does that contradict the Twilight Hammer killing night elves? It was the lead up to Garrosh dueling Cairne.
Originally the Twilight’s Hammer were posing as forces sent by Garrosh, which Garrosh denied being involved with, even if he thought it was a good idea. Now with Chronicle he just sent forces himself to start the war.
I’d rather they just retcon it. Follow-up to a crappy story is not a fix for the story being crappy in the first place. You can’t build a stable story-house on the sand of a rotten premise.
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Prompted by the experience of Assyrians in the 1933 Simele massacre in Iraq, “genocide” was coined by Lemkin to describe what happened to the Armenians in 1915. He describes it thus:
Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
(Lemkin, Raphael (2008). Axis rule in occupied Europe : laws of occupation, analysis of government, proposals for redress.)
IRL comparisons are important precisely because they are the example set for how to understand what the term means. If you grant Teldrassil is a genocide, you have to grant that Nagasaki and Hiroshima are genocides. I don’t grant that because neither Teldrassil or Hiroshima are characterized like a “genocide” above, which is systemic action by a government to arrest, deport and execute a target group, particularly their intellectuals and community leaders. The specific historical context of genocide is that which describes an oppressor class against target groups and oppressed classes, usually within a population and nation-state (historically), or explicitly demographically (racial, religious, etc) prejudiced motivations for acts of mass murder, and not especially egregious acts of general warfare. One can condemn things like Teldrassil and Hiroshima (which are much more similar, though neither are genocide and the latter is far worse) with extreme and utmost prejudice without carelessly corroding the concept of genocide. The alt-right already perverts the word enough as it is.
Given all that, I have a hard time seeing how Teldrassil constitutes a genocide. Genocide is precisely not indiscriminate slaughter. It possesses the explicit intent to destroy a particular people. Sylvanas did not intend to kill Night Elves. The fact that Darnassus is Night Elven is accidental to her intent, not essential - she killed Worgen and Humans there too. It was an immensely important city of military and economic power held by her political / wartime enemy. She didn’t even intend to kill everyone, just burn the tree. Night Elf settlements litter Kalimdor, and she’s not exactly doing a systematic execution of those communities. Again, this is still egregious because she killed civilians, but that means she doesn’t meet Just War standards by committing war crimes and “crimes against humanity,” which are very, very bad but they aren’t genocide. At least according to the guy who coined the term. Hiroshima is vile and terrible, but it isn’t a genocide.
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Oi. This is all semantics. That’s all people do with this. Pedantic nitpicking over the definition and use of a word instead of the act she committed.
She burned an island of indeterminate size that held a civilization capital and several other settlements throughout it, killing more civilians than any other single act has done in the entirety of World of Warcraft’s run.
Some people pick up on the word “genocide” from Elegy. At the very least, in the setting Priestess Astarii and Anduin both call it as such. Saurfang has come to simply say “Do you know what she’s done?” You want to call it “crimes against humanity” instead. Does it really matter what words anyone uses?
It doesn’t change the act.
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Oh i would change a few things first thing is Malfurion would die someone that powerful is to dangerous to leave alive. Second thing is i would still have the tree burn but have the Old Gods or the Naga do it, this would trick the Alliance into thinking the Horde did it and let them do what ever they feel they need to win, as for the Horde it will set them up to have to deal with a crazy Alliance that does not know the truth and will never think the Horde told them the truth about the tree.
You could still have the Battle of Undercity you could even have Saurfang do what he doing now thinking that the Horde burn the tree as for how he would not know it simple he never made it back before it was set on fire and he just think the worst, that if you want to have Saurfang do that story. Other then that we would get a proper war where neither side is the bad side.
I really don’t like the idea of Old Gods/Naga doing it. “Lol corruption caused it” is such an overused and hackneyed trope and it pits the two factions against each other while undermining the actual faction war elements. Hence my prior proposal of an “Undiscovered Country”-style conspiracy by people who don’t want peace between the Alliance and Horde and are looking for an excuse to start up the war again, a sentiment that can be felt on each side that pushes the factions to war by manipulating the situation at Arathi, which if it had been successful would have been a major step for peace between the Alliance and Horde (and more specifically Stormwind and the Forsaken). Extra points if it’s tied to Stormheim in some way, since in my prior proposal I suggested Rogers as one of the potential members of the conspiracy and she was the one who gave the order to attack at Stormheim.
More political intrigue and nuances, gives more insight in how members of the factions feel about it given that they’re “lower decks” material characters rather than main characters and faction leaders, and keeps it grounded in the actual faction conflict without making either faction into the “bad guys” in the freaking pre-patch event.
She most certainly did. or rather Saurfang planned it. The first step in the War of Thorns campaign was simultaneous strikes at every Night Elf settlement in Ashenvale. That wall of wisps Malfurion used to block Sylvannas’ army in Darkshore? That came from all the dead in Ashenvale. As an Alliance player starting in the aftermath of the massacre in Astranaar you see stream after stream of Wisps heading out towards Darkshore. And again, I will remind you that all those deaths in Ashenvale were planned, and executed by Saurfang on his direct order. Tyrande should have ended him on the spot for that alone. She’s quite right to castigate herself for not doing so.
When Saurfang suddenly got all Honor Orc and threw away the objective of the campaign, she punted to another goal… “Inflict a wound that would never heal.” Not the destruction of mere property or geography, but to rub out the bulk of the Night Elf race itself… the same way Arthas took out 90 percent of the High Elves she once was a part of.
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I’m starting to think we need a “definition of genocide megathread” to keep every other discussion from going down this road.
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Whoever is unclear on what a genocide is. Fictionally or otherwise is either arguing in bad faith or has mental deficiencies.
Killing Malfurion was not the objective of the campaign. Sylvanas was just having an emotional break down and was lashing out at Saurfang to try to cause him likewise emotional damage.
I think it was nice it burned. The sentiment of loss reverberated even out of character for Night Elf players. In war stuff like that happens, people die due to the devastating actions. It was a bold lore move for blizz…
But then, who did it. I would have it either being Gallywix jumping the gun on his own decision and Sylvanas taking the blame, or it being an Alliance fanatic.
The thing I would have made a retcon is the Malfurion died and caused Tyrande to just go… “You know what… no you cant have Telrassil.” Elune gives her strength to take out her own city and Sylvanas was like “oh I wasted my time here and alliance did something that’s not apart of their typical tactics. Well…I was not expecting that.” Saurfang: looks at random facebook post. “The alliance are saying we did it and now using it to justify a attack on Lorderon in full force.”
Absolutely.
Inflicting a wound was. And per her estimation, Malfurion surviving got in the way of that. Which is a point even Saurfang agrees on.
No, her plan was to hold Teldrassil to get the Alliance to put resources into getting it back and Genn leaving the Alliance because they weren’t putting those resources into getting Gilneas back instead:
- “They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. “And even if the Alliance agrees to retake Darnassus . . . The Gilneans!”
Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”
And if you note, Malfurion was even alive in Sylvanas’ plan layout. Because there’s the kicker. Sylvanas’ plan called for holding Teldrassil to prevent the battle for Lordaeron, and then relying on Genn to complain that Anduin wasn’t helping Gilneas first instead of taking Teldrassil back so the Alliance would split. Sylvanas didn’t know that Genn was never going to betray the Night Elves, and without that knowledge, the idea that Malfurion living would somehow make it so Genn would back taking Teldrassil doesn’t actually follow Sylvanas’ train of thought. By burning Teldrassil, following Sylvanas’ thoughts, she was actually removing the only thing holding Genn back from convincing everyone to go straight for Lordaeron. Sylvanas literally threw away the only thing that held her plan together. And she admits this:
- “They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.
“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”
He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”
Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.”
Everything after the emphasized part was just Sylvanas having an emotional break down because she was chastising herself for not finishing Malfurion when he was served to her on a silver platter, and then pushed over the edge by Delaryn and then lashed out without actually even thinking about what she was saying.
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If you played Horde side, the first quest giver, Sylvannas herself, when she first tells you about her Thorns campaign ends her quest text with these words.
"Malfurion Stormrage Must Die."
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Yes, holding Teldrassil was meant to be the wound that divided the Alliance. It was a means to an end more than the plan itself.
“If you want your enemy to bleed to death, you inflict a wound that cannot heal. That is why I need you to make the plan, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “The moment our strike begins, there will be no turning back. We can divide the Alliance only if the war to conquer Darnassus does not unite them against us. That only happens if the Horde wins an honorable victory, and I am not blind—the Horde does not trust me to wage war that way.”
This is further confirmed, again, by Saurfang.
This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal.
Again, it wasn’t that Malfurion survived (him not dying period was not an issue). It was how he survived.
With a single strategic push, the pressure on the Alliance would cripple them for years, just as long as they could not conjure any miracles on the battlefield.
The wounds of this battle would have bled, festered, decayed, and rotted the
Alliance from the inside out. Anduin Wrynn would have lashed out in a final, desperate war, looking for a miracle, because only a miracle would save them.
But a miracle already had. A miracle granted by the honorable hand of a foolish old orc.
And an overconfident warchief. Best to lay blame where it belonged. This was her mistake as much as Saurfang’s.
This conquest of Darnassus would rattle the kaldorei people. They would grieve for their lost, fear for their imprisoned, and tremble at the thought of the Horde ransacking their homes. But they would not fall to despair. Not anymore. Malfurion’s impossible survival would give them hope.
Their wound would heal.
He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.
But she was right.
A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it. The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.
This is what happens when you have a quest written by one person and a novel written by another, neither one allowed to use the real motivation for the war, and no one coordinating their different versions to make sure they match up. I think you’ll save yourselves a lot of headaches if you just accept that there are two versions of Sylvanas’s plan that don’t match up.
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This is what makes it so Malfurion’s surviving has nothing to do with the failure or success of Sylvanas’ plan.
Sylvanas believed that Genn Greymane would leave the Alliance if the Alliance helped retake Teldrassil first. Malfurion surviving has no relevance to that idea. The Gilneans do not worship Elune - this contrast is even depicted in the Howling Oak between Sister Almyra on the side of worshiping the Light and Belysra Starbreeze for Elune. And Sylvanas believed that Genn would demand taking Gilneas back first.
There’s no connection between Malfurion surviving and Sylvanas’ views of Genn Greymane demanding Gilneas be prioritized instead.
And this is after the fact that Sylvanas’ expectations on how the Alliance would react to Teldrassil were wrong from the very beginning, as Genn Greymane was never going to betray the Night Elves in the first place. And the Night Elves didn’t lose hope after the burning, either. Sylvanas is consistently shown as not being a credible authority on Alliance thought processes. And isn’t even consistent with her own.
Edit: Additional points:
Saurfang never voiced this aloud in that meeting.
Saurfang was suffering from severe depression and PTSD and using the War of the Thorns as an escape mechanism to distract himself. In such a state Saurfang was susceptible to any blame that can be thrown at him regardless of honesty.
And that miracle turned out to be Alleria and Jaina. Sylvanas shouldn’t hitting up any casinos any time soon with how often she’s wrong about miracle chances turning against her.
But she mentioned a true plan in the novella, so maybe she just said that was her plan? Idk if there are really enough hints to make it a proper mystery, but they are clearly setting up some kinda reveal.
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