If you are pro-covenant, read this

[Wirt-stalagg]

I stand for salting my fries with the angry tears.

[anon85998724]

Not deflection if it’s true.

[Kharneus-dalaran (Kharneus)]

@Jondoake-queldorei

Seven weeks is plenty of time for Blizzard to pull the rip cord that Ion already said they’ve developed.

Hate being the bearer of bad news, but the new developer update confirms the ripcord will not be pulled any time soon.

[Soulebreaker-hyjal]

Covenants lock you out of your own class abilities. Choosing a class does not do that. Systems replaced the last talent row. What you have now is not a row but one choice. It’s taking something away. Not giving a replacement.

[Jondoake-queldorei]

@anon85998724

@Jondoake-queldorei

I also have multiple specs, talents, and gear options I can freely swap at any time. Comparing class choice to Covenants is not a logical argument.

But it is. You can be a Warlock and only a Warlock. You can’t suddenly start busting out Greater Pyros because Warlocks are behind Mages in X content.

This argument doesn’t work. Class choice is in no way similar to Covenant choice:

1. You can literally change Covenants at a whim (first time is easy, going back is less easy). You cannot change classes.
2. Covenant locking on beta has no lore or story reasoning, nor is the story of Shadowlands changed in the slightest by my specific Covenant choice. Choosing a class affects my experience of the game in myriad ways.
3. I do not get to test out all the classes on one character before choosing which to play. We don’t start the game as a level one nothing and then pick a class at level 10 after using every class’ abilities for a short time.
4. Your class affects every single way you interact with the game. Covenant choice affects two abilities.
5. Elements of classes (spec, talents, gear) can all be changed in any way at any time with no restrictions. The same is not true of Covenants.

Get this ridiculous argument that Covenants are like classes out of your head. It doesn’t hold up.

[Jondoake-queldorei]

@Wirt-stalagg

I stand for salting my fries with the angry tears.

You like soggy fries? That’s actually standing against something, not for. And I ain’t even crying boo.

[Lucrend-thrall (Lucrend)]

Sure it is. The covenants are basically talents.

[anon85998724]

No, they’re not.

[Ragnök-bleeding-hollow]

@Maldoren-alleria

A system in which Class A is strong in Situation X but weak in Situation Y, and Class B is weak in Situation Y but strong in Situtation Z, and Blizzard creates content designed around having certain advantages and disadvantages depending on your group comp?

Don’t forget class C which is weak in everything and class D which is great in all situations.

I don’t know about the latest build but there were classes that had covenants that still did that even within the last month.

Then you have the classes themselves such as warlock which is great at cleave and has uncapped aoe versus BM hunter whos aoe was capped but the damage still hasn’t been adjusted so they suck at cleave and can’t compete at 5+ targets.

[Wuhanbat-area-52]

Mounts/Lore/Tmog are enough for it to be a “meaningful choice” anyone who is against being able to swap covenant abilities are either lazy or don’t play the game at a difficult enough of a level for their opinion to matter

[anon85998724]

@Jondoake-queldorei

You can literally change Covenants at a whim (first time is easy, going back is less easy). You cannot change classes.

1. You can change class specs without penalty. There is no generic ‘class’ without a spec.

2. Picking a class has no lore or story reasoning in Shadowlands. Regardless of what class you are, you experience the story and lore the same way.

3. You can make trial characters before choosing which ones to play.

4. But you can change conduits and soulbinds. The only difference is time, which is irrelevent.

I will get this ‘ridiculous argument’ out of my head when you stop comparing Covenant abilities to Talents, because they’re not either.

[Lucrend-thrall (Lucrend)]

Yes they are.

[Monori-bleeding-hollow]

@Aeishalla-area-52

That means game elements are influenced by the story.

This has literally never been a thing in the 15 years prior. You have never had a timegated lockout on changing talents or your spec. You have never been prevented from taking a talent due to a story decision. This is an MMOrpg the order of the acronym is important.

[Jondoake-queldorei]

@anon85998724

@Jondoake-queldorei

You can literally change Covenants at a whim (first time is easy, going back is less easy). You cannot change classes.

1. You can change class specs without penalty. There is no generic ‘class’ without a spec.

2. Picking a class has no lore or story reasoning in Shadowlands. Regardless of what class you are, you experience the story and lore the same way.

3. You can make trial characters before choosing which ones to play.

4. But you can change conduits and soulbinds. The only difference is time, which is irrelevent.

I will get this ‘ridiculous argument’ out of my head when you stop comparing Covenant abilities to Talents, because they’re not either.

I never said Covenants were talents. Covenants are more closely related to specs: each Covenant comes with abilities, strengths, and limitations; as well as talent choices in the form of Soulbinds (very similar to specs, wouldn’t you say?). Can we not freely and easily change specs at literally any time (outside combat) with no cost or limitation?

The major flaw with your “Covenants are like classes and you can’t change classes” argument is that we’re not asking for that. I don’t want warlocks to use warrior or shaman abilities. I don’t want warlocks to get mage Covenant powers. I don’t even want destruction warlock to get affliction warlock abilities. I just want warlocks to be able to use warlock Covenant abilities.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Jondoake-queldorei

Would you prefer having to swap a Covenant ability in order to get into a group, or would you rather be flat out rejected from the group because you have the “wrong” Covenant?

You’re leaving out option C. Start your own group and don’t worry about the covenants you fill it with.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Wuhanbat-area-52

anyone who is against being able to swap covenant abilities are either lazy or don’t play the game at a difficult enough of a level for their opinion to matter

Heck, Im not doing crazy hard content, but it’d be fun to fool around with them. I’d love to be able to go Night Fae for farming legacy raids faster, but back to something with a more interesting class ability for current content.

[Zappithorus-darkspear]

Lmfao who gives a crap it’s blizzard’s game and it’s our choice to pay for it. Suck it up man. If you seriously want to swap covenants than make 2 warriors, rogues, mages, ect. or just eat the penalty.

[Zhoe-area-52 (Zhoe)]

I think, technically, a covenant ability has to be tied to the covenant, by definition. But I get what you’re saying, the abilities shouldn’t be locked to covenant choice.

[Mcarthur-frostmourne]

You have a choice, choose the Covenant that is the Covenant you want to represent, abilities included. Like when you choose your class. The absurd amount of whining over this is simply humorous at this point.

[Kinemetra-barthilas]

You have a choice in name only, not in reality. The abilities are not balanced. The abilities will not be balanced. For anyone who cares at all about how their characters perform, there is zero choice. The choice you are offering people is “choose not to care about player power, or choose to play the covenant assigned to your class by the balance team”.

I don’t actually care about being locked to an ability, or locked to a covenant. Having to choose an ability and sticking to that ability would be absolutely fine; it would be determined by balance for people that care about it, and not for people that don’t. The only issue is covenants being locked to the abilities. The entire experience you have with the story of the expansion is locked to what ability is overperforming or underperforming in a specific type of content for your specific spec. God help you if you enjoy playing multiple specs or content types.

Dividing player power from story is absolutely mandatory for making players not feel punished for their choices based on an inability for Blizzard to balance.