If you are pro-covenant, read this

[Ðirestorm-goldrinn]

@Brakon-proudmoore

Is it to spite this supposed “1%”?

No

@Brakon-proudmoore

Or do you actually believe that the system as-is will be healthy for the game and its playerbase?

Not only healthy but a great addition to the game.

@Brakon-proudmoore

These were all systems that the player base nearly unanimously disliked in alpha/beta releases only to see them released as-is.

That is why the parallels I make are classes, specs, professions, races and factions.

@Brakon-proudmoore

Of course we all know the history around these systems… They sucked on release, (as was predicted) and were fixed patches later.

Azerite was a boring bunch of passives that people obsessed over like crazy. Most of the criticism made against them was completely nonsensical. After a bunch of small changes that didn’t addressed the problems people just kinda forgot about it to complain about something else.

Essences were awesome from the start and remain awesome to this day.

Corruptions were just a weirdly overpowered system that remains a huge problem to this day.

Legion legendaries introduced a huge amount of RNG into the game on the first weeks that kinda fixed itself as people got more legendaries to choose from. When the legendary vendor was added most players that care about it already had a good number of them.

@Brakon-proudmoore

At this point we are all on this treadmill for blizzard. We buy the expansion, we pay the sub fee, and then we play the game filled with systems we don’t like. But isn’t that sickening? Isn’t it horrible to think that blizzard KNOWS we will keep playing regardless so they just ignore player feedback and release broken systems?

It is indeed very weird. The reason I pay money to play this game is because I really enjoy it. It is odd to me the idea of paying to play a game I don’t like. I think you like the game, otherwise you would not play to play it, or even spend any time on it, so I don’t know what you are talking about.

@Brakon-proudmoore

They know the systems are bad. They know full well.

I don’t think so. There is no reason to release bad systems for a game. Bad systems makes you lose players. They are releasing the system because they think is a good one, and I agree with them.

@Brakon-proudmoore

The amount of feedback and criticisms on these broken systems is immense!

So just like everything they make.

@Brakon-proudmoore

Even among content creators the usual divide down the middle doesn’t exist this go around. You’d be hard pressed to find 2+ content creators that all like and praise the system as is, and that is just unprecedented.

Hazel, Taliesin and Evetel, Soul Breazy. But I don’t think this is a good metric.

@Brakon-proudmoore

Objectively speaking the system doesn’t work. It isn’t even opinion at this point.

wrong, videogame taste is inherently subjective and it will never cease to be.

@Brakon-proudmoore

Even blizzard understands this and continues to hard nerf the abilities and soul binds to the ground. I suppose you could say its admirable they are trying so hard to make this work, but it just won’t. Its like watching a baby playing with a toy that has several shaped spaces and blocks that fit into them. No matter how much that baby may try or how adorable it might be to watch them play, they won’t be able to fit the square block into the circle hole. It just won’t work.

Oh so the fact that they are balancing the system while it is on beta is now proof that you are right… got it…

@Brakon-proudmoore

The covenant system doesn’t fit into the mold of the game and its playerbase as they are now.

Really, how so?

@Brakon-proudmoore

Honestly pulling the entire rip cord isn’t even all that neccessary. All they would have to do is make the abilities a new talent row and remove the 1 week timegate on resetting conduits and 90% of player criticisms go away instantly.

But you just described the ripcord.

@Brakon-proudmoore

The systems will still exist and players will be happy, so everybody wins?

No because the system would now be extremely boring.

@Brakon-proudmoore

Oh wait, no. Blizzard will take that as a loss because their pride won’t allow them to admit a mistake.

I don’t think that that is how a company that wants to make money thinks.

@Brakon-proudmoore

Or at least that’s what I thought right up until they reverted some GCD’s recently. Obviously blizzard reads and watches all this criticism coming their way and is capable of making the right fixes when it counts, so the only conclusion left is to assume that they actually don’t see what’s wrong with the current system. They think all the top players, (who understand the game better then they do, apparently) are just blind to the brilliance of this system.

Yeah it is probably very hard to know what is wrong with the system, specially when almost all the criticism of it is completely incoherent. The so wise top players seem to be completely unable to form a coherent argument against the system, I wonder if that has to do with the fact that they play on a level that the game was not designed to handle. The MMO RPG genre completely breaks down when you race for world first, it becomes one of the most unsavory full time jobs there are, and these players will always complain when something that is good for the game makes their life even more miserable.

@Brakon-proudmoore

Of course, we all know how its going to go. The memes have predicted it. The system will release broken, and will be fixed in a later patch after an entire tier or 2 has been sullied by it.

I’m sure you will interpret it that way when some random change happens to it.

@Brakon-proudmoore

We all want shadowlands to be good. We all agree on that.

We do

@Brakon-proudmoore

My ultimate desire isn’t even to have the changes I have outlined here to happen, my goal is for the game to be good and fun.

I’m completely on board

@Brakon-proudmoore

If that means they fix the system in the way I think is best, great. If that means blizzard is right and the system is fine as-is, then great!

Awesome.

@Brakon-proudmoore

It just seems that as it is now, Shadowlands goes from a 9/10 expansion to a 6/10, and that shouldn’t be the case.

Its a shame to hear that, because for me, covenants make the game goes from a 9/10 to a 10/10.

[anon85998724]

@Lucrend-thrall

You shouldn’t let people dictate how you play. Sounds like an individual player issue.

Pot calling the Kettle black.

@Lucrend-thrall

But locking the covenants and people choosing “the wrong one” won’t make it more difficult?

Locking Covenants promotes pros and cons. Unlocking Covenants only promotes cons.

@Lucrend-thrall

For the life of me I cannot see a negative to unlocking covenants.

I’m not surprised, since you’re used to having everything given to you.

[Lucrend-thrall (Lucrend)]

@anon85998724

To make something flexible means it can be used as a tool to force people to change.

Again like I told the poster above me, this sounds like a player problem if you let people dictate how you play.

@anon85998724

People complain that Pugs will be less affordable with Covenants, but will be made even moreso when those same pugs know you can swap a Covenant with relative ease.

Because excluding people who have the “wrong” covenant won’t happen at all…

@anon85998724

So no, it isn’t objective at all, only you’re biased interpretation of it.

Again, bleating about a subjective question does not a point make.

So just to be clear, your answer to “how will swappable covenants affect you” is you’ll be forced to switch? Am I reading this correctly?

[anon85998724]

@Lucrend-thrall

Again like I told the poster above me, this sounds like a player problem if you let people dictate how you play.

Sounds like a player problem if you dictate to the game how to play your character.

[Lucrend-thrall (Lucrend)]

@anon85998724

Pot calling the Kettle black.

Where am I dictating to anyone how to play? What I want is player freedom and choice.

@anon85998724

Locking Covenants promotes pros and cons. Unlocking Covenants only promotes cons.

No, you couldn’t be more wrong.

@anon85998724

I’m not surprised, since you’re used to having everything given to you.

Do me a favor and keep to the topic and don’t resort to petty insults. Are you capable of doing that?

[Lucrend-thrall (Lucrend)]

@anon85998724

Sounds like a player problem if you dictate to the game how to play your character.

Where am I dictating anything?

[Sarama-firetree]

@Zhoe-area-52

If you give people the ability to change covenants on the fly, you will be expected to use the proper ability

Nobody can force you to change. Literally, it’s impossible if you don’t want to.

@Zhoe-area-52

This will limit people in groups, because “just change it.” You either get kicked, or don’t get invited. Making your own group still has the issue of people leaving the group based on ability choice, so you won’t get kicked, but you are going to have a much harder time getting the people needed.

If so many people want to stick with one, there will be no problem finding others to group with.

[anon85998724]

@Lucrend-thrall

Where am I dictating to anyone how to play? What I want is player freedom and choice.

You’re literally telling people that Covenants promote player freedom when it only promotes trend chasing.

@Lucrend-thrall

Do me a favor and keep to the topic and don’t resort to petty insults. Are you capable of doing that?

It’s a petty insult when I do it, but sage objection when you do it. Good to know.

[Sarama-firetree]

@anon85998724

To make something flexible means it can be used as a tool to force people to change.

Where are all these armed bullies forcing people to swap gonna come from? All it takes is the pro-locked folks being willing to say “no” and to group with each other to avoid this entire issue.

[Scrèwtape-proudmoore]

@Lucrend-thrall

@Iristrace-proudmoore

Why is that a bad thing?

Because it takes away player freedom and discourages experimentation with abilities.

Perfectly said.

@anon85998724

makes the game far more interesting than the bland ‘10 levels, three talents’ of old.

I’ve always felt that allowing players to freely switch made the game more interesting than going to a website to tell me which covenant to choose as soon as I hit max level and then “setting and forgetting” it. The restrictions make the “choice” and system very dull and boring.

I’d rather think, plan, and strategize while making my choices from content to content.

I wouldn’t say your point is “illogical” but at the same time I don’t understand how a “set it and forget it” style ends up being more “interesting”.

@Synsha-sargeras

I’m very pro covenant… I’m just not pro power locks behind covenants altering my competitiveness in various contents. That’s where I get off the boat. You want me to lock into different stories and play different characters to see it all? That sounds great. Sounds like some good replayability. You want to make me have to choose whether I’m going to be good in raids or going to be good in M+… and choose which game mode I’m just going to have to be a detriment to my team? No… Just… Just no.

I normally disagree with just about every one of your stances on aspects of the game - but apparently this is the ONE thing we actually agree on.

@Lucrend-thrall

Tell me how does unlocking covenants affect you in the slightest?

It doesn’t. RP fanatics don’t get impacted the slightest because they’ll still stay loyal to their first choice.

@Hammerdan-proudmoore

Yes, I think having meaningful choices in an RPG is good for the game overall.

Agreed. My choices from content to content are very meaningful to the success of my groups. Freely swappable covenants accomplish this.

@Zhoe-area-52

If you give people the ability to change covenants on the fly, you will be expected to use the proper ability, even if you choose to RP with one covenant.

Not true - people think this happens today, but there are lots of players that just pick their talents, essences, etc. once and they’re done.

The people that change to be optimal don’t do it because they’re “EXPECTED”, they do it because the WANT to do it.

@anon85998724

it can be used as a tool to force people to change.

Not true. You have to “level” each covenant separately. Worst case, if players don’t want to swap they can just say that they didn’t level any other covenant - which if they value “RP” and stayed loyal, they didn’t. No one is going to want others to swap things to something completely unleveled. An inferior covenant will be a LOT better leveled up than a superior covenant that has no progress made.

[Tynst-uldum-889000]

Once again I see people seeing covenants as some equalizing silver bullet that’ll get them into PUGs. Wishful thinking.

[Arazdor-hyjal]

@anon85998724

To make something flexible means it can be used as a tool to force people to change.

No one is forcing you to do anything. It would only be an OPTION for people that wanted to…

Here’s the scenario and two options… you’re Kyrian. You apply to a group and they say they don’t want Kyrian.

Option 1 - Without easy Covenant switching you get declined. Simple.

Option 2 - With easy Covenant switching you have the option to go switch if you really want to join this group. If you don’t want to switch, you don’t have to and you get declined.

See… given both options a player like yourself would get declined from that group because you don’t want to swap Covenants. However, someone else who doesn’t mind switching on-the-fly would be accepted.

You’re literally advocating to restrict the options of other players based on your personal preferences. Not for any good or demonstrable reason.

[anon85998724]

@Scrèwtape-proudmoore

I wouldn’t say your point is “illogical” but at the same time I don’t understand how a “set it and forget it” style ends up being more “interesting”.

Because there are inherent flaws to the power you choose. Taking away those flaws to make content easier and making your character more flexible on top of what’s already there completely obliterates risk and reward.

[Zhoe-area-52 (Zhoe)]

Well, I did lay them out. It is a grouping issue, and not letting people dictate how you play doesn’t make it any less of an issue. I told you exactly what the other side is trying to avoid, and you completely ignored it.

I am on your side, but being purposely obtuse doesn’t help your arguement. Choosing to not see the other side’s problems doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

We are on the same side, but I think you’ll be going on the ignore list.

[Scrèwtape-proudmoore]

@anon85998724

You’re literally telling people that Covenants promote player freedom when it only promotes trend chasing.

The restrictions promote trend chasing.

Players will end up feeling like they have to pick “correctly” even MORE than they do now because of the restrictions and will do what Limit/Echo/WoWHead/Icy-veins tells them to do.

If the system was flexible, players would be able to test and experiment in end-game content on their own as they continue to earn their power/conduits/soulbinds - which breaks through “meta/trends”.

[Scrèwtape-proudmoore]

@anon85998724

Taking away those flaws to make content easier and making your character more flexible on top of what’s already there completely obliterates risk and reward.

The Role-Players have already solved that problem. They just pick once and stay loyal.

They get the “interesting” aspect you talk about and they also don’t want to push the restrictions onto others because they can attain the benefits through their own free-will.

[anon85998724]

@Scrèwtape-proudmoore

They get the “interesting” aspect you talk about and they also don’t want to push the restrictions onto others because they can attain the benefits through their own free-will.

That would be true if you could never swap Covenants. Advocating for Pugs and not Guilds will further exacerbate the need for complete flexibility at all times.

[Zhoe-area-52 (Zhoe)]

It happens with Rio, and it will happen with abilities. If you don’t think that player advertising for his +13 is going to be selective of the people applying, or the +15 someone is applying to, with that DPS that chose defense for PvP, then I don’t think you’ve thought it through. Along with playing the way YOU want, others get to play how THEY want, and most don’t like to “waste time.” In a video game of all things.

[Lucrend-thrall (Lucrend)]

@anon85998724

You’re literally telling people that Covenants promote player freedom when it only promotes trend chasing.

It does promote freedom of choice. It encourages experimentation with different abilities.

@anon85998724

It’s a petty insult when I do it, but sage objection when you do it. Good to know.

Oh no, you claim I’m used to “everything given to me” with nothing to base that on.

@Zhoe-area-52

Well, I did lay them out. It is a grouping issue, and not letting people dictate how you play doesn’t make it any less of an issue. I told you exactly what the other side is trying to avoid, and you completely ignored it.

Because it’s a non issue. Either people “feel forced to swap” or they’ll just get outright declined.

[Scrèwtape-proudmoore]

@anon85998724

That would be true if you could never swap Covenants.

The role-players won’t ever swap covenants. So it CAN still be true if covenants are freely swappable.