True peace is not the laughable thing that Gary Stu preaches, dear. His “peace” would crumble ASAP precisely cause he is not even competent enough to understand both his allies nor the Horde races, period.
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My, my, arent we sure of ourselves. As far as I remember Anduin wasnt the one that hinged his entire plan of world conquest on Genn being a dick, which would create a domino effect of everyone else being a dick.
Nor is Anduin at the brink of civil war, with his only supporters being femthrall and nathanos.
So yeah, apparently a 18 yrs Old is better at leadership than an immortal elf, thanks human potential!
I mean I wouldn’t say she hinged her entire plan on that, she immediately pulled up a backup plan that crippled the Alliance and had a pretty good chance of just outright killing them were it not for like…four Deus Ex Machina’s in a row?
As for civil war, Anduin hasn’t exactly had the best control of his troops, or his city, or his…anything lately, he was pretty badly losing the war until Dazar’alor and we don’t really know what Sylvanas is going to pull out next.
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I’m not defending ALL the BS Sylvanas pulled on that novella dear, but that little bit WAS a good point: most Horde races are too militant and very good holder of grudges to submit to Anduin’s version of peace (A. K. A Let’s pretend nothing ever happened here and let’s all take our hands and sing kumbaya!!).
And is a fact too the brat IS too conceited with his own stubbornness to actually pay attention to what his allies or subordinates tell him (Shaw facepalmin at Anduin’s filling Orgrimmar with rogues to the point of ridicule comes to mind… Or Tyrande’s very much justified rebellion in regards to Darkshore in 8.1.5).
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Okay, but no one you’re talking to is an actual member of the Horde. We’re all players of members of the Horde. And as a player, I’d much rather have an enthusiastic opponent who makes no bones about wanting to “mercilessly crush everything in red” as the Alliance leader (military commander, if not actual High King).
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Okay, i’ll do a rundown of the pre bfa horde leaders and races:
-Lorthermar doesnt give a damn about the nelves that kicked his race out, never has. Belves are pretty chill with the draenei as of late.
-Saurfang and the orcs like fighting but also just wanted to stop commiting genocides (and failed, which i grant to you)
-Baine is bffs with Anduin.
-Trolls dont have a leader rn but im sure nagas and murlocs are higher on their list atm.
-Gobs and Gallywix only care about moolah so its a coin flip honestly.
-Mayla was basically riding Baine’s coat tails
-The pandaren are non existant, but i doubt they were foaming at the mouth for some carnage.
-Thalyssra and the NB wanted to be defenders of azeroth.
-Sylvanas ruined the first chance for undead and humans to reconcile
Its almost like i can pin this entire mess on Sylvanas.
I can hardly call Tyrande going solo for a day or so as a “rebellion” since at the end of the day tyrande got the help she wanted from Genn, the player and the alliance (if the warfront dude words about not abandoning the nelves in their time of need are true)
Edited for Language by the Moderation Team.
https://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct
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No wait i just remembered. Didn’t Sylvanas totally dismiss Jaina as any sort of threat or concern in BtS when she told Baine to stop sexting Anduin and he brought that up and she was unconcerned?
If that isnt karma, i dont know what is lol.
quote from frozen warchief: “what are you gonna do, Freeze me?”
- Lor’themar effectively don’t care. As in he doesn’t give a monkey’s behind over dead Nelves et al… But I can bet you that if they come for him, he will have no moral issues killing them invaders. As it’s shown in both TBC questing AND Blood of the Highborne.
And Liadrin’s cheerleading of draenei =/= Belves nor Lor’themar being their mega buddy buddies.
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Please, Saurfang was VERY happy with his unlawful war campaign. His “qqq but muh honor!!!” regarding hitting Malfurion in the back after he condoned rogues killing people in Ashenvale is the actual OOC of the story.
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Duh, this is a fact. Baine trusts, loves and cares more over his Alliance pals than his own people. Thank Golden for such abhorrent character development.
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Irrelevant, both Vol’jin and Talanji weren’t Alliace races fans. And Rokhan so far goes under the same prerrogative.
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Thalyssra and the NB rather and literally follow the Belves example… Which means they are apathetic at best and downright hostile at worst.
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Forsaken narrative and BtS BS retconns… Nuff said.
So yes, me thinks the brat lives with his head on the clouds and his heart on his sleeve.
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You mean like any sane person would do? I dont think anyone would roll the red carpet for invaders? What does that have to do with anything?
Didnt i just acknowledge you were right about the orcs? why bring that up even?
Vol’jin was dead and even when he was alive he wasnt the sort to just do war for war’s sake. Talanji wasnt a part of the horde PRE BFA (notice the wording i used at the start of my post). Rokhan is not a racial leader, he doesnt matter here.
Meaning they wouldnt attack the alliance just bc then? Only if provoked? Good.
Hey, canon is canon. I also think Cairne’s death was BS and like to pretend that wolfheart never happened… but wishes dont come true, sadly. Just bc something is BS doesnt mean it doesnt count.
Me thinks you’re just looking for excuses to make Sylvanas look less insane.
- Lor’themar just wants to keep HIS people safe. A major conflict with the Alliance, especially one that results in the loss of UC, would certainly be something he’s against as it puts BEs in danger.
- Saurfang was originally opposed to the idea of War if you recall. It was Sylvanas that convinced him into it AND the one that gave him the order to create a plan of attack. He also regrets his part in this conflict due to the results of Teldrassil.
- Baine has maintained a positive relationship with not just Anduin, but also Jaina, despite all odds. Tauren have never really had a dog in this fight, many of the losses they’ve suffered from the Alliance stem almost exclusively from their affiliation with the Horde (there was a book on this).
- Vol’jin had positive (or at least respectful) relations with several Alliance members prior to his death; including Varian Wrynn. He may have been skeptical of the Alliance, but he was a source of de-escalation. Had he survived, this war would not have happened.
- Thalyssra will follow the BEs example, you are correct. Which is why they’ll follow Lor’themar gladly when he finally turns on Sylvanas. Its coming.
- The Forsaken “victim complex” and the Alliance “Betrayal” of them have always been rather shaky due to the conclusion of their WC3 story; as well as their behaviors since. THEY may think their actions are justified, but the rest of the world is unlikely to see it that way. It is also true that Sylvanas directly interfered with what could have been a first important step towards some tolerance and reconciliation between the Forsaken and Humans.
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He’s just saying the kid is green and doesn’t know anything. Plenty of merit in that.
True, and very, very bad. “The boy-king serves at the master’s table.” May get that chance after all is said and done.
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You people are too chatty in the morning! ![:upside_down_face:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/upside_down_face.png?v=6" ":upside_down_face:")
I’m on my way to work so no time to respond (or even finish reading).
Want to say this though:
My OP isn’t about what players want out of the faction war. Horde wants to hate and kill Alliance. Alliance wants to hate and kill Horde. Bluish draenei Paladins with names that start with “Jaz” and end in “ia” want no faction war at all. So on and so forth.
It’s about what I think would objectively be better for the people living in Azeroth.
An enemy that pulls his punches and will forgive almost anything is better for the Horde… imo.
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Yeah, but not because they were smart or intellectual. The propaganda had it that the intellectuals were in league with, and propping up, the Bourgeois and the West. And the Communist party didn’t want West-sympathetic academics teaching the next generations. It’s not like it was actually their fashion or intellect that was targeted, it’s the threat they posed to the regime via their ideology.
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I probably wont wish death onto anduin, but if a group of alliance extremist attack the horde and he refuses to par reprimands or punish the ones who did that i would probably support warring with him.
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This I grant you, but no enemies left and a pile of corpses is preferable. Better yet when the corpses get up and side with you. If I were a (actual, real, not player) member of the Horde, I’d probably agree with Sylvanas and Saurfang’s pre-emptive strike on Teldrassil, and the proposition that we need to finally win this war because the Alliance makes it difficult to flourish, and my socialization is pretty anti-Allies no matter what race I am. (I mean, we Alliance always have a threat hanging over their heads with some of the most powerful people on Azeroth and could take them out on a whim with a couple good strike teams; we make them kowtow to our demands of culture, ethics, etc or we threaten dismantlement…some kind of Faction Sovereignty. It’s like the Monroe Doctrine: the Horde has been our Third-World vassal state for awhile, and we have to put it down or do regime change when it gets too uppity.) So in my mind, decisively ending the war with a Horde conquest is ideal and imperative, and once that failed I’d have no choice but to continue fervent support of the Horde, it’s leadership, and our success in the war at any cost. And that’s the kicker - I don’t think many players get that survival “cornered animal” instinct present in the Horde generally and especially the Forsaken. It’s ingrained in nearly every races’ history and aesthetic, but somehow the players don’t seem to latch onto it as easily.
And I aknowledged Sylvanas is a nutjob so what was your point, then?
No, what I contests is OP’s argument about everybody and their mother on Horde side should be feeling terribly grateful and happy over being subjected to the brat’s Gary Stu influence. Lore DOES show the Horde is not made of Baine’s clones (Lor’themar is shown as despising the brat in the NB scenario -love his sass there btw-, trolls are shown as apathetic and disdainful of Anduin if not hostile over humans -especially of the Kul Tiran brand-, Gallywix basically makes fun on the Alliance leaders and doesn’t have any issue with military actions against them, Orcs are just too happy to jump at the chance of a Good Wa… I mean a Good Fight and so on and so fort).
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Omg… It is becoming a trend Another Human Pally that got the point (indeed, if the Horde is about staying together for survival purposes it is but a given that the races making part of it are gonna behave in a similar way to a cornered animal… Alliance may not be portrayed as attacking Horde tertitories 24/7, but historically for Horde races it does have fulfilled the “threat on the Horizon” since as early as the starting zones for the main races (there you find this weird remanents of Alliance nations literally messing up with the Hordies backyard for the lols and without an apparent condemnation coming from the main Alliance government.
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Yeah my thinking on the Alliance has shifted a lot over the years as I thought more about political philosophy. Originally - since it literally was in the first games - I thought it was essentially a Christian parable / simulacrum, crusaders of the light against the tide of darkness. Cool aesthetic, but unrealistic, and one that has to change at least in a subjective capacity once players Role Play as the Horde in WoW. The Horde has to be given a reason to not feel like the Armies of Darkness, and it has to feel real. So the narrative shifted (even before WoW, ofc). Now I see the Alliance more as a stand-in for Anglo-American Empire - an omnipresent force in the world that for many has an air of benevolence, but whose actions and ideals cannot and are not universally esteemed as such, especially to historical enemies (Orcs, Trolls) and national minorities (Forsaken, Tauren) who have wildly different culture. So the Alliance feels like a “Roman Empire” while the Horde feels like a “Barbarian Rebellion.” My own sympathies on the geopolitics of WoW tends to oscillate, as do my IRL views, but even though I remain staunchly Alliance as a matter of commitment to tradition and nostalgia I can’t fault the Horde for its lot. To me, that extends even to BfA, and I honestly don’t understand the backlash against Sylvanas. It feels…uncritical, given the general thrust of the Horde narrative in the overarching Azerothian geopolitic. But I understand that subjectivity and disunity has a big hand to play in this, and that it always has, especially in the Horde.
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The backslash against Sylvanas is related to the methods she chose to achieve her goal (which frankly, do come as pretty cartoonish and stupid when one thinks about them) . To put it bluntly, a good portion of the Horde players felt it was written in such awful way purely to benefit the “Alliance is a lawful good entity that never ever does wrong and whose cultural values must be aknowledged as the only rightful ones” agenda of some devs. It started in Cata and has not stopped since then.
And after Legion (an expac with remarkably poor Horde participation) this type of narrative vibe was gonna annoy a lot of players on the red team. We came from an expac in which we felt like invisible members from the B team to end up as the cartoon villains for the A team. And that was harsh.
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Part of this is tough since it is always hard to say what the average person knows. But I’d probably agree.