If I were a member of the Horde

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

It didn’t help that the war of thorns in-game started before the supplemental material came out for Sylvanas’s current excuse. Before that, the war was pretty much started with the reasoning that Anduin Wrynn of all people would start a war to exterminate the horde.

Even if the horde player tries to look at it purely from an in-character point of view, I don’t think it works because we had an entire expansion of becoming familiar with the kind of person Anduin is (we even quest with him for a short time). And in Legion we quest with a couple other alliance leaders. Even if the horde PC isn’t fond of them, there should be at least some measure of respect given that the player has bled for them in a fight against a common threat.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

Trolls dont have a leader rn but im sure nagas and murlocs are higher on their list atm.

The Darkspear still think the Loa had Voljin choose Sylvanas. Rokhan knows that may not be the case, but even after Baine’s arrest, he seems to preach caution and unity.

Blizzard made a point to state that a Darkspear Mage lit the initial salvo of Catapults at Sylvanas’s command, and Darkspear Shaman made Teldrassil burn all the better.

I think people dismiss the Darkspear’s attitudes.

[Martelle-aerie-peak]

I don’t know. I get how that’s the perception, but to me her acts seem 1) in character and 2) realistic. I don’t want to bring in the IRL politics on the forums, but in my view the IRL Alliance analogues have done a lot more for a lot less. I’d…argue that this backlash tends to be due to a deficiency in historical criticism and political catechesis in the US (which is famously bad abroad), but 1) that doesn’t apply to all players anyway and 2) it’s very presumptuous and more importantly uncharitable, a quality which I try to eradicate in myself.

I simply don’t see a parallel between Garrosh and Sylvanas that many are claiming. Garrosh was an out-and-out Orc supremacist, and had many nefarious deeds and ideals coming into his demise, and without any sympathetic history. Sylvanas on the other hand is developed through her tragedy (death) and - even in the case she’s utilitarian - still commits to the betterment of the Horde. She might not care about the Horde’s traditional values and ideals - “Honor is nothing to a corpse” - but she absolutely does care for its survival (and dominance) by any means, even if for some ulterior motive (preservation of the Forsaken, ergo preservation of herself).

“Alliance is a lawful good entity that never ever does wrong and whose cultural values must be aknowledged as the only rightful ones”

And I agree with you here completely. My issue is that it seems to me like the values that many Sylvanas critics want the Horde to espouse happen to look exactly like those of the Alliance, but with red paint and spikes. And the Alliance is more than happy to have their ideals imposed on the Horde (Anduin and Varian prove this over and over), and are much happier if the Horde imposes it themselves. Again, in my view, the IRL analogues here are astounding from a standpoint of political criticism. It is quite seriously the Monroe Doctrine. And Horde players appear to be gobbling it up. I’d say that’s because most WoW players are Anglosphere Westerners and so already actually believe the ideals of the IRL Alliance Analogue and therefore the Alliance itself, so they get uncomfortable when the Horde begins to act or believe in ways that contradict or fail that Analogue’s standards. Sylvanas very much does contradict the perceived standards of the IRL Alliance analogue, so it makes many uncomfortable. I don’t think real Horde members (i.e. regular non-players) would reasonably think the same way. They just aren’t socialized into the same philosophies as the player base. (Hence my original reply to this Forum.)

We came from an expac in which we felt like invisible members from the B team to end up as the cartoon villains for the A team

And to clarify, I agree the Horde is generally invisible. This is a common theme for you on the Forums, and I really appreciate it because it has to be said. I don’t know if the dev’s actually favor the Alliance (because in my view, the Horde development is more interesting, Thrall is Metzen’s favorite and Nathanos is an insert), but they certainly seem to think players relate more to Humans, Draenei, Dwarves and Night Elves. Horde is invisible generally. But I disagree that there’s any cartoonish villainy. Even Garrosh wasn’t even actually cartoonish, because we have real world analogues that were far more terrifying for far stupider reasons. Sylvanas is more ruthless and effective than Garrosh, but ideologically she’s not nearly as nefarious, and as I said in terms of actual violence she hasn’t perpetrated anything that IRL Alliance analogues haven’t done already.

No offense intended here, so I apologize in advance. I think we agree on a lot and disagree on a little, and it’s good to discuss what those things are and why they might be.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

No offense taken, so no need to apologize

[Thilena-zuljin (Thilena)]

The Night Elves have never been capable of stopping the Horde. They’ve lost the entirety of Ashenvale twice now not to mention being unable to evict the Warsong. Now they’re left with a fraction of their population and they’re somehow supposed to continue fighting the Horde that is no longer focused on Stormwind. They’d be lucky to hold on to any of their territory if they kept fighting alone.

Both times they lost Ashenvale were by sneak attack (really, if I was a Night Elf fan I’d be furious that the Horde managed to pull this off not once but twice).

In this case they’d be on the offensive, against a Horde that was scattered across Azeroth and a Horde without any possible counter to Malfurion or Tyrande (I’m doubting seriously that Sylvanas will be around by this point).

The only nations with any territory are the Night Elves and the Kul Tirans, and only the Kul Tirans have had their population remain mostly unharmed. The Horde on the other hand, has yet to suffer a major defeat like the Night Elves.

Any harm the others did would cost them far more than it costs the Horde. And why would Stormwind have any units desert? They’re being told to go home, not fight their former allies. I can see a few individuals, but on the whole they’re going to listen to Anduin.

Yep, the Night Elves are still in a position to supply themselves, they don’t really need Stormwind to supply them.

Considering what happened to the Night Elves and Worgen both, I’d say they’re well past the point where they’re thinking logically. They want blood. Their homes were destroyed. They. Don’t. Care.

[Reallyhappy-dalaran (Reallyhappy)]

The darkspear (Hell, trolls in general) i think are unique in they are willing to be honorable or pragmatic depending on the individual and situation. They have a undefined code of honor, but also know what an actual people require and that one needs to get their hands dirty, unlike the orcs and tauren. This might be because unlike the tauren who have an idiot for a leader and are not used to a non-nomadic lifestyle, and the orcs who’s current leadership never really had the experience of managing a nation (Almost all their old leaders are dead, and do to the way succession works in orc society there is no guarantee the successor know’s what he is doing) they tend to inflate Honor with how one should govern their entire society which would have probably wiped them out if they didn’t have powerful allies and being on good terms with the elements.

[Urdoth-hellscream]

The alliance gets a “saint” and we get the lich queen. If it weren’t for all the elves on alliance, I would love to defect. Musical warchiefs and the ceaseless hours of abuse with the villain bat tend to wear myself and others down. That aside though at the rate actiblizz is going, the horde is probably going to hold the majority of elves that is something for me to think about as well.

[Urdoth-hellscream]

Well there is a dev-preference towards the horde. But it comes mostly from the art department, and the content department. The writing department seems to be going in the polar opposite direction. I have noticed that the horde and their races get a lot more “thematic” and “artistic” love than the alliance. Cataclysm was a giant example of this. As was WoD in some areas (the exception being the garrisons). Horde always gets the extra flourish and it’s new races come out cleaner than the alliance counterparts.

One only needs to look at the examples of the nightborn and highmountain vs lightforged and void elves (the latter being a concept race pulled from someones rear-end).

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

Assuming he has some kind of peace treaty with the Horde, he would just have to cut off support and disavow any faction that attacked. None of the Alliance nations are strong enough to fight the Horde on their own so ultimately they would have to fall in line. In the long term this is bad for Anduin and the Alliance, but he does have the power to do this.

With the same logic it means the Alliance cant protect its members and so it will disintegrate and everyone will be at the mercy of a united Horde.

Question is does Andiun value the Horde over the Alliance or not?
Killing 1 Sylvanas does nothing to change the Horde attacking the Alliance out of nowhere for a third time.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

The Night Elves were capable of holding off the Horde even when they were hit with a surprise attack, and the Horde only broke through because they were relying on Saurfang’s tactical acumen.

Often ignored point: It wasn’t the full might of the Horde. They attacked early to take advantage of the nelf army and Tyrande being away. If they had stuck to their original timetable they would have had nearly double the soldiers.

Op you’ve made it clear in the past that you hate the faction war, and that you love Anduin. I doubt your willingness to understand why a character like him is bad in a war narrative.

1. Don’t make assumptions about me. It’s rude.

2. This thread has nothing to do with what players want out of a war narrative. It’s about whether or not Anduin’s leadership is good for the Horde in universe.

True peace is not the laughable thing that Gary Stu preaches, dear. His “peace” would crumble ASAP precisely cause he is not even competent enough to understand both his allies nor the Horde races, period.

He seemed to understand the desires of the Forsaken well enough. Even Sylvanas to a point.

I’m not defending ALL the BS Sylvanas pulled on that novella dear, but that little bit WAS a good point: most Horde races are too militant and very good holder of grudges to submit to Anduin’s version of peace (A. K. A Let’s pretend nothing ever happened here and let’s all take our hands and sing kumbaya!!).

Forsaken and Orcs.

Orcs and Blood Elves.

Blood Elves and Trolls.

Zandalari Trolls and every other race in the Horde.

The Horde is made up of races that actively hated each other and tried to kill one another quite recently. Two of them are even ex- Alliance.

But the Horde is family.

Or at least that’s what we have been told.

So which is it?

Neverending grudges?

Or acceptance with sufficient motivation?

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

An enemy that pulls his punches and will forgive almost anything is better for the Horde…

This I grant you, but no enemies left and a pile of corpses is preferable. Better yet when the corpses get up and side with you. If I were a (actual, real, not player) member of the Horde, I’d probably agree with Sylvanas and Saurfang’s pre-emptive strike on Teldrassil, and the proposition that we need to finally win this war because the Alliance makes it difficult to flourish, and my socialization is pretty anti-Allies no matter what race I am. (I mean, we Alliance always have a threat hanging over their heads with some of the most powerful people on Azeroth and could take them out on a whim with a couple good strike teams; we make them kowtow to our demands of culture, ethics, etc or we threaten dismantlement…some kind of Faction Sovereignty. It’s like the Monroe Doctrine: the Horde has been our Third-World vassal state for awhile, and we have to put it down or do regime change when it gets too uppity.) So in my mind, decisively ending the war with a Horde conquest is ideal and imperative, and once that failed I’d have no choice but to continue fervent support of the Horde, it’s leadership, and our success in the war at any cost. And that’s the kicker - I don’t think many players get that survival “cornered animal” instinct present in the Horde generally and especially the Forsaken. It’s ingrained in nearly every races’ history and aesthetic, but somehow the players don’t seem to latch onto it as easily.

I’m not sure what to say other than, “Huh?”

Don’t blow up any more of my cities, turn innocent people into mush, try to use old God artifacts to conquer the world and eradicate neutral nations or we’ll fight you to the end = treating the Horde like a 3rd world vassal state? Imposing Alliance values?

Is blowing up cities, melting people and using evil artifacts to conquer the world so essential to the Horde way of life that asking them not to do it is forcing Alliance culture and ethics on them?

Because if that’s the case, then maybe the Alliance really should dismantle the Horde!

No, what I contests is OP’s argument about everybody and their mother on Horde side should be feeling terribly grateful and happy over being subjected to the brat’s Gary Stu influence.

No my argument is that the Horde is better off with Anduin as an opponent in this war.

Lor’themar is shown as despising the brat in the NB scenario -love his sass there btw-

Lorthemar might not like Anduin but he has always been a pragmatic character who will do what’s best for his people. The blood Elf population has been hit over and over again. Risking a war of extermination is not in the best interest of his people. You don’t have to love the Alliance or Anduin to think that peace is better than war.

… back to work

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

Don’t make assumptions about me. It’s rude.

It’s less about assumptions, and more observations. I wouldn’t trust Treng to make a thread about the Forsaken.

This thread has nothing to do with what players want out of a war narrative. It’s about whether or not Anduin’s leadership is good for the Horde in universe.

Well congrats you have the same mindset as Blizzard.

Anduin being Anduin is bad for the Horde in the sense that he’s too lenient on others. Which hey, means the High King concept is crap, but why would a Horde member trust Anduin’s word so far?

From a Horde member’s pov, can he keep Genn under control? Not use Calia against Sylvanas? Stop Tyrande from going Super Saiyan Moon? If the narrative actually cares, people should be concerned about the slaughter in the pleasure palace, and what the Dark Iron have been doing.

[Martelle-aerie-peak]

Is blowing up cities, melting people and using evil artifacts to conquer the world so essential to the Horde way of life that asking them not to do it is forcing Alliance culture and ethics on them?

Because if that’s the case, then maybe the Alliance really should dismantle the Horde!

Maybe. If it is, then dismantle them. But that’s the point. The Horde doesn’t have sovereignty to make their own decision unless it comports with Alliance interests. They were threatened long before Garrosh, just from the fact that they had less habitable territories and fewer resources, and no stable economies. From the start they were worse off. And this attitude here “maybe we really should dismantle them” is exactly my point! Obviously the power dynamic here is one where the Alliance has the edge, and they don’t want the threat of domination and dismantlement hanging over their heads. So, better to dominate and dismantle the Alliance than hope the Alliance doesn’t get an itch for their goods, territories, resources or blood.

[Martelle-aerie-peak]

This thread has nothing to do with what players want out of a war narrative. It’s about whether or not Anduin’s leadership is good for the Horde in universe.

Sorry, that wasn’t evident in the OP. It felt more general.

Then I still disagree. If someone more vicious was in charge, they wouldn’t be capable of doing a ton more damage than the Alliance already has done, and they’d also give more reason for the player base (and the Horde) to coalesce around Sylvanas and her tactics.

[Okagha-blackhand (Okagha)]

With the same logic it means the Alliance cant protect its members and so it will disintegrate and everyone will be at the mercy of a united Horde.

No, it means he wont protect members that take offensive action against the Horde. That’s how real world organizations similar to the Alliance work. He would be willing to protect them if they were being attacked, but he’s not going to support them in a war they start.

Both times they lost Ashenvale were by sneak attack (really, if I was a Night Elf fan I’d be furious that the Horde managed to pull this off not once but twice ).

In this case they’d be on the offensive, against a Horde that was scattered across Azeroth and a Horde without any possible counter to Malfurion or Tyrande (I’m doubting seriously that Sylvanas will be around by this point).

The Horde would not be scattered if they signed a peace treaty with the Alliance and the Nelfs decide to attack. The Horde would be able to bring all of its military to focus on the Night Elves and whoever follows them. If the Night Elves can’t even win a war on their own against the Horde in their prime, how do they ever expect to win after suffering a genocide?

Yep, the Night Elves are still in a position to supply themselves, they don’t really need Stormwind to supply them.

Considering what happened to the Night Elves and Worgen both, I’d say they’re well past the point where they’re thinking logically. They want blood. Their homes were destroyed. They. Don’t. Care.

Supply themselves from what city and with what population exactly? Even now they only have Darkshore, which was hardly developed by the Elves as they tended to avoid the place. I’ve been nice assuming that the Worgen would actually help, but if Sylvanas is gone and the Night Elves are only fighting for revenge, they likely would go back to rebuild Gilneas. Genn has even mellowed out in BtS and really only hates Sylvanas now.

The Night Elves would very likely stand alone if they wanted to continue this war for revenge.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

I dunno, I feel like I can’t really argue with your points, Martelle, but…I still can’t bring myself to accept them for some reason. The stuff about imposing the alliance’s morality and concepts of honor on the horde doesn’t really resonate with me because Blizzard has shown them as universal, if nebulous concepts.

Pre-Cataclysm, the horde’s ideals were compatible with the alliance and it’s only because someone in the horde does something horde-dishonorable to screw over the alliance that they ever fight back. To me, the game seems to paint it as the horde deserving whatever they get.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

No, it means he wont protect members that take offensive action against the Horde. That’s how real world organizations similar to the Alliance work. He would be willing to protect them if they were being attacked, but he’s not going to support them in a war they start.

Except he failed to protect them.
He also failed to send them resources or forces to retake Darkshore.
So far he has done nothing but provide a temporary refugee center.
Real world organizations also pursue war to completely and utterly destroy their enemy until they surrender.

If Andiun tells everyone to stop fighting because “we got Darkshore back so we should not be taking the offensive” is pretty nonsensical.
What you think just because the Horde gets pushed back out of Darkshore or Ashenvale suddenly its wrong to counter attack?

The Horde has attacked the night elves several times now. Why should they be happy to go back to the status quo just so Horde recovers and invades again?

[anon95961490]

Sylvanas is more ruthless and effective than Garrosh, but ideologically she’s not nearly as nefarious, and as I said in terms of actual violence she hasn’t perpetrated anything that IRL Alliance analogues haven’t done already.

I mean I might agree with this but like now you’re blurring the lines here between the IRL analogues and the lore. They wrote the Horde to commit genocide bro… the Alliance didn’t. So it’s being pretty blatantly shoved in our faces that one side is bad (they do genocide) and one side is not (they don’t). Of course in WC3 this was different. The Alliance was painted as wrong because they clung to the old hatreds, chasing the Orcs across the sea. BUT all that’s been kinda washed away now again with the way the Horde is the one always doing the invading and genociding when a faction conflict comes up (Cata/MoP, BfA), which is what’s annoying and why I gotta side with #TeamSaurfang.

SO taking in account the way you interpret the factions to be analogous to IRL entities, then I see your point and might even agree. Taking the lore and actions of the parties strictly within the realm of the lore, separating the IRL stuff, then I do not. It is the Horde who invaded and now occupies someone else traditional ancestral lands, with the excuse that is “right next to Orgrimmar anyways, so it should be ours”, using gas masks, skulls, and all (what IRL analogue could this symbols be to?)

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

It’s less about assumptions, and more observations. I wouldn’t trust Treng to make a thread about the Forsaken.

It is an assumption.

You assume because I have a preference for certain characters and certain types of stories I lack the capacity to understand or sympathize with differing points of view.

Rude.

It’s possible to disagree with someone else while still understanding their perspective.

Well congrats you have the same mindset as Blizzard.

Right.

Creating a thread specifically to debate a potential inuniverse perspective = Not caring about the players perspective.

Anduin being Anduin is bad for the Horde in the sense that he’s too lenient on others.

And will be lenient on the Horde if they lose.

Yes.

The Horde doesn’t have sovereignty to make their own decision unless it comports with Alliance interests.

The Alliance interests in this case is not being blown up or conquered.

They were threatened long before Garrosh, just from the fact that they had less habitable territories and fewer resources, and no stable economies. From the start they were worse off.

Which is why fostering a good relationship and trade should be important.

And this attitude here “maybe we really should dismantle them” is exactly my point!

Dismantle them when they are slaughtering Alliance civilians and have no intention of stopping, yes.

I really fail to see how, “Don’t kill us or our friends in horrific ways” is an unreasonable expectation.

So, better to dominate and dismantle the Alliance than hope the Alliance doesn’t get an itch for their goods, territories, resources or blood.

Even better, take advantage of the fact the Alliance has a leader who has wet dreams about holding peace conferences, see how you might benefit from it and then see what happens next.

Then I still disagree. If someone more vicious was in charge, they wouldn’t be capable of doing a ton more damage than the Alliance already has done, and they’d also give more reason for the player base (and the Horde) to coalesce around Sylvanas and her tactics.

Anduin has deliberately held back from causing too much collateral damage. Another leader might have no problem holding back. It could be someone more inclined to fight fire with fire… literally.

[Okagha-blackhand (Okagha)]

If Andiun tells everyone to stop fighting because “we got Darkshore back so we should not be taking the offensive” is pretty nonsensical.
What you think just because the Horde gets pushed back out of Darkshore or Ashenvale suddenly its wrong to counter attack?

If Anduin finds a way to end the war peacefully and signs a treaty with the Horde, yes.

The Horde has attacked the night elves several times now. Why should they be happy to go back to the status quo just so Horde recovers and invades again?

The Night Elves are the ones that need to recover. They can be mad at Anduin all they want for ending the war before they get their revenge, but despite what Nelf fans believe, they need the Alliance to maintain their borders after losing the War of Thorns. And because Stormwind makes up the bulk of the Alliance military, Anduin is able to force the Alliance to accept a peace treaty with the Horde.