If BGs are going to reward premades pubstombing PUGs

[Neme-whitemane]

why would I need to tell them that? they already know its fun. I should tell it to the horde who have to play hide and seek, and cant find any pvp. now THAT sucks…

Then reroll the true PvP faction.

[Antimage-kirtonos]

okay. I will reroll ONLY if you delete your main and level with me.

[Neme-whitemane]

Keep making more excuses. You don’t like to PvP, you like to steamroll people. That’s why you rolled Horde on a server with a 2:1 population advantage. And that’s why you are complaining about premade BG groups pugstomping.

[Antimage-kirtonos]

yea buddy i totally knew my server was 2:1 ratio. ur the one making excuses, just come level with me and send me that main deletion video.

[Neme-whitemane]

Why do I need to delete my character? I plan to PvP and pugstomp.

You can go back to PvE’ing on Kirtonos.

[Antimage-kirtonos]

cause. u want me to reroll like its nothing. well, if its nothing you do it too

[Neme-whitemane]

Because all you Horde PvP heros keep telling the Alliance to just ‘reroll pve’.

Because all you Horde PvP heros keep telling the Alliance that ‘they picked the wrong server type’.

[Antimage-kirtonos]

i never said any of those things?

[Faror-atiesh]

Why should more organized and skillfull players be punished? Do raids get worse loot than 5 mans?

Funny you should mention that. Raids do get worse rewards than five mans if you take a raid into content designed for a single group. Raids get better rewards when they take on content a single group cannot.

Following this precedent, premades greater than a single group should suffer penalties to honor gain in a regular battleground. There should also be an option to match up your raid against another raid with the victor getting honor gains greater than would normally obtainable in a regular battleground.

[Leafblight-dark-iron (Leafblight)]

Weird right? It’s almost like private servers weren’t released and advertised by Blizzard and so the vast majority of the more casual “Vanillites,” didn’t even know they existed or play on them.

Oh wait.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

I would much rather que with people in my guild while we talk, stratagize, or just BS around on discord.

And that’s fine, but you should be matched with other people also doing the same thing.

[Zejung-wildhammer]

Absolutely wrong. BGs are just like every aspect of the game: there’s casual AND hardcore. Nowhere did Blizzard state that BG is for casuals. Hence why the honor system is the way it is

[Ultimecia-benediction]

I will threaten to quit.

just quit then

[Redbud-heartseeker]

The system’s already there; HKs. Whether in a group or solo, HKs are all that count. That’s as Vanilla as it gets.

We were discussing whether premades and pugs should have separate queues. If they don’t have separate queues we could find ourselves in a situation where 75% or more of the games are premades(which was the case on the private servers), which would make nearly every game lopsided and boring for both sides.

I can pretty much guarantee that Blizzard won’t push premades into their own queue, because that isn’t blizzlike. So we can safely assume that 75% of games will be premades stomping pugs.

The OP hopes that Blizzard will push premades into their own brackets, but that only works if the premades get some benefit to facing other premades. If there is no benefit then no one will premade. Instead the premades will split into 4 or 5-man groups and queue at the same time to get around the premade limitation, allowing them to queue against pugs.

[Redbud-heartseeker]

Playing solo or in a group doesn’t make one more deserving of anything than the other. Groups will likely achieve objectives faster and therefore rack up honor and rep faster, but they’re no more deserving of gains made than anyone else.

Premades get honor faster because they are more likely to win games. And the better the premade, the more likely they are to win, the faster they will gain honor. It is certainly a fair system in that regard, but is it fun?

Is it possible to create a system which is both fair and fun? Basically, is it possible to create a system that gives rewards based on skill/effort, where the games are actually fun because they are fair?

[Baniahan-benediction]

this is classic not retail? don’t remember separate brackets or battlegrounds for premades in vanilla.

[Elsinora-bloodsail-buccaneers]

Not to be snarky, but that’s the way it was in Vanilla. I remember the whole “queue in 1…2…3…” thing with my guild back in the day. I fully acknowledge that the playerbase knows a lot more and things in the regard are different, but a non-premade going against a premade is just one of those things we as PvPers have to deal with and adapt to.

Am I for a mechanism that will preferentially match groups with other groups? Sure, that’s a good thing. But by the same token, it shouldn’t keep groups from being queued when there’s space available simply because they’re a group.

Unlike raiding where the fairness/equality comes from everyone going against the exact same encounter with the differences being in what composition the raid group has and the tactics they use to overcome the encounter. PvP fairness/equality comes from everyone working within the same reward framework. Everyone queues for the same BG and the reward/gain structure is the same for everyone. How the individual deals with the dynamic environment within that framework is how things are different for PvPers.

I’m especially against the idea that people who are in a group are somehow better or more deserving of “rewards” because they’re in an organized group vs. in a “PUG baddie” group. That whole idea is bogus.

[Haavi-barthilas (Haavi)]

Why should more organized and skillfull players be punished?

Hahaha! A classic horde response. So basically, having an organized fight of an equal number of players, equally geared and skilled… is considered punishment?

Nice one.

Would you give then increased rewards for the more competitive play?

As much as being pubstomped by premades can be annoying, they put in the time and the effort to be in that situation. Their advantage is the effort that they put in over the opposite team, just like in any casual competitive event that should be worth something.

You don’t go telling your opposing soccer team who puts in 3 training days to your 1 that they aren’t allowed to compete on your level and have to handicap themselves do you?
They choose to put in more work to be more competitive.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

Premades get honor faster because they are more likely to win games. And the better the premade, the more likely they are to win, the faster they will gain honor. It is certainly a fair system in that regard, but is it fun?

Is it possible to create a system which is both fair and fun? Basically, is it possible to create a system that gives rewards based on skill/effort, where the games are actually fun because they are fair?

The entire point of the queue system is to create fair matches. Hence why there’s level brackets as well why it won’t start games until both sides are full. Including some premade grouping as well in that is totally in line with what the queue system is for.

[Redbud-heartseeker]

1. I think it is bad design when 75% of games are so lopsided that the outmatched team hides in the corner rather than put up any fight at all.
2. I would prefer groups get matched against other groups, but groups will only queue as a group if there is a benefit to queuing as a group. If you get the same amount of honor for playing against pugs as you do premades, and if you win 100% of the time against pugs but only 50% of the time against premades, why would anyone want to play against premades?
3. Good groups generally get more honor-per-hour than bad groups because they win more often, and they win faster. Even bad premades win 90% of their games against pugs. So even bad premades will get far more honor-per-hour than pugs.
4. But if bad premades are always forced into premade-priority system with good premades they will always lose. And if they always lose, the bad premade that would win 90% of the time against pugs would get less honor-per-hour than had they pugged.
5. If there is no premade-priority system at all, the rate of honor gain should generally be equivalent to the skill of each group. But if there is a premade-priority system then only the best premades will get good honor-per-hour, and eventually there will cease to be premades except the best one, or the best faction.
6. If there is a premade-priority system, you’ll end up with tons of premades on the dominant side, and none or very few who dodge the other premades on the other side, or they’ll queue as 4-5 man teams(whatever the max is before it becomes a premade).
7. If there is no premade-priority system, premades will dominate both sides to the point that battlegrounds will effectively be unplayable for pugs.
8. The reason premades exist is to increase their rate of honor gain. But they get this increased honor by stomping pugs in lopsided games. And the more lopsided the game, the better the honor.
9. Lopsided games aren’t fun for either side, but in order to compete for the top standings you must do whatever you can to increase your honor-per-hour.

So the question is, can you devise a system where the best teams get the higher honor-per-hour that they would have gotten by stomping pugs, without requiring them to stomp pugs?