Ideal Horde Council set up


Odyn literally had been usurping the Kyrians for ages.

What Odyn did to Helya was cringe and disgusting, twisting her body against her will after resisting him, and the in-game lore book mocking anyone who believes Helya has not aged well.

They can’t Retcon it, so better to affirm what Odyn did was wrong and Helya can break the Survivor Becomes Abuser trope.


As a long term forsaken fan I’ve got to admit I initially wanted the Primus (and frankly this expansion) away from the Forsaken but this idea is growing on me

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Let’s say he is usurping them (which I disagree with) - so what? I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing.

Just because she’s evil due to someone else doesn’t excuse it. She’s helping the dude trying to end the universe, remember?


Nah. Odyn literally plagiarized magic from the Shadowlands against the will of the established order and without the consent of Kyrestia.

She’s helping Zovaal after eons of bitter resentment because her body and soul were twisted by Odyn and she was forced to serve against her will for a time.

Odyn did that in order to usurp the natural order of the cosmos so he could have some immortal warriors that idolized him, claiming to do it for fighting the Legion and yet.

Primus and Kyrestia should be on their way to the Halls of Valor to beat the dude up, and Primus should have sympathy for Helya since Zovaal’s chains breaking that led to her magical violation is ultimately his own failure.

Breaking the Survivor Becomes Abuser trope is needed.


I’m still struggling to understand why you think that’s a bad thing - plagirise magic lol. I think you are inventing these positions - reasonable that they are, of course - to suit your damning criticism of Odyn. Do you really think Odyn’s purpose was explicitly to “usurp the natural order of the cosmos”? Come now.

Sorry but I think that helping a universe-destroyer kills any sympathy I have for her. It doesn’t help that Helya was established as a villain and then her backstory was revealed after, as well. Meh. I can’t help but love Odyn regardless. Gods gonna god!

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This is a bad take and you should feel bad in light of everything we’ve found out about what has been going on at Blizzard and the fact one of the most prominent abusers was in charge of the story once Metzen left.

Helya is a survivor allegory.

Helya is a Survivor Becomes Abuser trope.

Helya’s portrayal in Odyn’s book is palpably mocking “Believe women”.

Helya deserves better. Odyn deserves to be punished.


occuleth maybe

Nah Occuleth would be First Telemancer

vulpera aren’t people

They are Lord Renard’s abandoned children

kiro best racial leader! and more cute and fluffy

Obviously nobody.

No more Warchiefs.

It makes perfect sense. Every race in the Horde should be represented. But the playable races aren’t the only races in the Horde.

Lorewise, it makes no sense that the Vulpera should have a seat on the council, while larger groups like the Taunka and the Hozen do not.

No he didn’t. He usurped the order imposed by the pantheon of Death. A rival pantheon whose order is no more “natural” than his own.

Nah categorically false, the Kyrians are the psychopomps of the cosmos, Val’kyr should not exist full stop. It’s taking souls from the Shadowlands by a being of the Pantheon of Order.


Says who?

They’re the servants of one of the Death Titans. On the cosmological hierarchy, they’re no higher than Dreadlords.

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The Limbo quest in-game, Grimoire, multiple Danuser interviews, and the fact they’re literally the ones ferrying the souls of the dead to the Shadowlands that is well established.

Like lmao what that’s one of the FEW things they’ve been aggressively consistent and same story with

Valkyr are taking souls meant for the Shadowlands, bringing them to Odyn, and then Stormforging them (ie making them immortal robots again) or turning them into more Vaklyr.

Kyrestia under no circumstances should be approving of such a venture, using her power to steal souls of the dead for the purposes of the Pantheon of Order.

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First Ones had a direct hand in the crafting of the Kyrians.


So what? Who says there’s anything “natural” about that process? How do you know the entire system isn’t just a construct for the Death pantheon to siphon energy from the souls of the material plane? The Kyrian themselves could just as well be a perversion of whatever the so-called “natural order” is supposed to be.

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Because we literally have been told word of god by the devs that they’re established by the First Ones lmao

this is unhinged and you’re clearly just being contrarian, have a good night, feel better in the morning

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And what makes the First Ones “natural”?

There’s nothing “natural” about any aspect of the Warcraft cosmology. It’s just 6 different cosmic powers vying for supremacy, and none of them is any more “right” or “natural” than the others.

And there’s no reason to think that the ones that came before those powers weren’t just another layer of ***hole gods perverting the universe for their own benefit.

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What Blizzard says goes.