Ideal Horde Council set up

My framework in a nutshell is that the city itself becomes a neutral city administered by the Conclave. Capital City would be predominantly human, with the Argent Crusade keeping order. Undercity would be predominantly Forsaken, with the Knights of the Ebon Blade/The Earthen Ring keeping order.

Both Alliance and Horde observers would be permitted a permanent station in the city and have unfettered access to both locations. Residents could freely travel between Capital City and Undercity, while visitors would need a permit from the Conclave.

Tirisfal itself would remain Horde territory, with the corollary that human travelers through Tirisfal to and from Capital City would be allowed to freely come and go as long as they behaved.

Screw the Horde. Screw the Alliance. All that matters is letting these people finally heal.

That’s because without humans, you don’t have the Alliance. Literally every single human on the planet has some kind of connection with the Alliance, be it a historical connection or a social connection. Humans and the Alliance are as synonymous as Orcs and the Horde and I know that you aren’t dumb enough to think that there’s literally no difference between humanity’s role in the Alliance and the Forsaken’s role in the Horde. And I know that you aren’t dumb enough to think that there’s no connection between human identity and the Seven Kingdoms.

But sure, have humans join the Forsaken. That’s basically what’s happening already with Calia and Derek Proudmoore joining them. If it means that Forsaken and Humans can finally reconnect without the Horde’s totalitarian rule forcing a wedge between them, fine. Have them bring in their human customs, their human beliefs, their human relationships, their human religion, their human interests, and make that part of the Forsaken.

I think that you know what that ultimately results in. It results in the Forsaken drifting away from the Horde, which is the inevitable consequence of doing what you’re doing right now, namely assigning the Forsaken an identity that brings them closer to the Alliance than they are to the Horde. Assigning them an identity like that might make you feel better on forums, but it has long-term consequences if fully realized.

And you know as well as I do that Horde fans would probably complain about this too, because they want the Forsaken to be humans when it’s politically convenient for the Horde’s land claims, but for them to never actually behave like humans in ways that might strengthen their connection to other humans. The “Forsaken are the people of Lordaeron” schtick is political tokenism the Horde uses to justify its imperialism.

Also, in my proposal, the Forsaken get the bulk of the gameplay and aesthetic benefits from this arrangement. A big 'ol refurbishment for the Undercity with modern city design and graphical upgrades and all that jazz plus a bunch of Horde-exclusive services. A full fledged gameplay capital.

The Humans by contrast would get a comparatively humbler Theramore-esque settlement in Capital City with some basic hub services and a flight point. Much smaller, much less detail.

I think almost all Forsaken players/fans I have spoken to actually prefer being in the Horde and would not want to be in the Alliance. But honestly both the Alliance and Horde have been terrible to the Forsaken so a lot of people are just hoping the Forsaken become a third faction.

but from personal experience the Forsaken cannot be separated from the Horde because over the years the Forsaken identity has embraced being part of the Horde.

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I’m even willing to make this reciprocal. If there are Forsaken from other kingdoms (or from other races) that want to repatriate to Stormwind or Stromgarde or Gilneas or wherever the Night Elves end up resettling, they should be allowed to set up their own enclaves in those places as well, no strings attached. They can even stay Horde if they want.

no one wants your ultimatums, they are dumb.

The Forsaken want Tirisfall back, and they have every right to claim it and destroy any human that stands in their way of reclaiming it. Just like the Night Elves have every right to reclaim Darkshore and Ashenvale and destroy any Horde in their way.

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The inverse is also true, is the thing. You’re nakedly hypocritical.

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Also reminder that the opposite of the Horde situation in Northern-most and Southern-most Eastern Kingdoms is a reversal of the Alliance situation in Northern-most and Southern-most Kalimdor

Southern most? Which Alliance-Races operate in the southern of kalimdor and hold their huge Territorys?

In Silithus was the Cenarion Circle

Tanaris? no one (but the Trolls are there, the Fakarri-Trouls, maybe - if they really join the horde aswell - it could be arguably a part of the Horde now)
Uldum? No one.

So tell me, which part of the alliance faction is there? Have i forgotten someone?

Theram-oh wait

East-West Cold War divide. Give us Human Lordaeron and Forsaken Lordaeron coexisting uneasily, with the East being ruled by the Humans out of either Andorhal or Stratholme, and the West being ruled by the Forsaken out of a restored Undercity. The political tension would be amazing.

The West can be ruled by Calia Menethil, Queen of Forsaken Lordaeron. The East can be ruled by Regent-Lord Turalyon.

Archbishop Alonsus Faol acts as a neutral intermediary between both nations, trying to keep the uneasy peace going.

I honestly think this’d be the best of both worlds scenario. The Forsaken and the Humans both have a claim on Lordaeron, and I’d love to see that tension continue.

Edit: Alternatively you could even flip that. Alliance takes over the West and the Forsaken become established operating out of Stratholme, propped up with support from their Horde allies in Quel’thalas. It could be strategically advantageous to remain close to allies… the Alliance Lordaeron receiving support from Gilneas and the Horde Lordaeron from Quel’thalas.

Personally I prefer my original scenario but both are viable!

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theramore was central kalimdor, not south kalimdor.

And Azshara?

I’m going to keep on bringing up Theramore and the fact that it was destroyed by the Horde 6 expansions ago and remains a pile of rubble to this day while the Alliance wasn’t allowed to keep Lordaeron for 5 minutes when they captured it from the Horde.

Horde fragility anyone?

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A single town vs an entire city and home region.

Great comparison. Also, Theramore was part of a civil war arc for the Horde, so not really a great feeling victory.

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Try never getting any victory. At this point I’m not even convinced we’ll get to keep Stromgarde.

Also, love the implications that Theramore and Undercity are different because Horde players like one and don’t care much for the other. What Alliance players think didn’t even occur to you.

I’m on an RP server and I can absolutely guarantee there were many, many, MANY people attached to Theramore.

  • Troll vs Night Elves/Worgen at the Valor’s Rest Pass, Cenarion Circle trying to restore Silithus, and the Void Elves researching Ahn’Qiraj
  • All of Feralas would be Alliance, with Tauren/Goblins pushed to the water border that is Thousand Needles today (so New Thalanar vs Westreach Summit)
  • Dwarf/Night Elves/Worgen holding Bael’dun pass in eastern Desolace and Dwarf/Night Elf/Worgen vs Orc/Tauren between Stonetalon and Desolace
  • Dwarven hold in Stonetalon Peak + Night Elf/Worgen in Thal’darah Overlook (only the tree was blown up)
  • Orc keeping guard in Demon Fall Canyon area (since that is Orgrimmar’s western gate) and the Azshara under Horde control (Orgrimmar’s main north gate).
  • The rest of Nothern Kalimdor is Alliance using the geography as part of defense

And similar to Trolls having their Wild Gods support them, likewise the Alliance via the Night Elves have their Wild Gods (and the animals thereby).

Hell, I’d give the Alliance some harpies what with Aessina. A clan or two.

Try having your faction have every victory come with a giant asterisk of “was a warcrime”.

Undercity and Tirisfal glades is foundational for an entire Horde race. Theramore was town you might have liked a lot that is basically a very big outpost for your faction.

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Demon Fall Canyon is…a part of Ashenvale, or not? Since bfa, i´m not confortable to allow any hordepresence in any Night elf Area.

I dunno, looking at story forum sentiment I don’t think that Horde complaints would change even if the Alliance did war-crime its way into capturing Horde territory so whatever. Switch things around and see how much you like the Alliance thumbing their noses at you from Horde territory they captured and all you can do about it is complain “but it was a warcrime”

Lordaeron is foundational for the entire Alliance faction.