Ideal Horde Council set up

[Aurirel-wyrmrest-accord]

That isn’t a positive when said plot is just a pile of garbage that doesn’t actually offer an interesting or enjoyable future.

[Vespero-durotan (Vespero)]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

Which alliance forces of andorhall? The cata questline ends with an hordewin. So? Which forces?

The ones Chaeor assumes would move in to take it I guess?

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

Hard disagree. The best thing about BfA was that it upended the status quo, even if it meant dragging players kicking and screaming into the future.

Demonstrating that having an AH and a Bank doesn’t make you immune to the plot was great.

…

I agree.

And I’m a little pissed that fan reaction is probably making them walk it back, since the NEs retook Darkshore and the Forsaken will probably get UC back.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

Which alliance forces of andorhall? The cata questline ends with an hordewin.

Scroll up:

@Baalsamael-turalyon

If you control the two passages leading up to Andorhal, i.e. the Hillsbrad territory is Alliance and Arathi Highlands is Alliance, as well as the Silver Hand being formally fully Alliance again as per BFA so Hearthglen is yours as well as the majority of Eastern Plaguelands, is right next to Uther’s Tomb, which the Alliance likely holds, that means Andorhal is surrounded by Alliance controlled territory and groups to the south, southeast, east, and north.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I mean looking at a map it doesn’t make sense given the Alliance has the Silver Hand

The only chokepoints are the The Bulwark (eastern Tirisfal) and the dense forest and mountain pass between the Sepulcher (Forsaken) and Shadowfang Keep (which is Alliance held)

Fenris Isle is Alliance but that’s water, and the two routes to Andorhal from the south that feed into Chillwind Camp/Uther’s Tomb are the passage through the mountain east of Alterac and the passage through the mountains through Aerie Peak (Wildhammer Dwarves)

Northern Eastern Kingdoms has the Forsaken, Trolls, and Quel’thalas locked in, ergo the need for teleportation systems.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Unless new portals were opened in eastern Hinterlands communicating between Zul’Dazar and Raventusk Village, such that Horde managed to take the Jintha’Alor as a new base, as well as Shadra’Alor.

So the choke point between Aerie Peak and Shadra’Alor needed extra forces or else the Horde takes the northern path to Andorhal.

And likewise Zul’Dazar sending reinforcements to both the Stranglethorn Gurubashi and the Swamp of Sorrows Gurubashi (now also Horde) such that the Alliance decided to retreat and relocate forces given the proximity of both Troll Reinforced territory with Stormwind.

And so the Horde pulled a fast one and took Tirisfal, pushing the Alliance back to the chokepoint of the Bulwark (Western Plaguelands - Tirisfal choke) and the Dark Dense Forest and mountainous path between the Sepulcher and Shadowfang Keep in Silverpine Forest.

So the Horde Eastern Kingdoms holdings are:

• Quel’thalas (Eversong + Ghostlands, with the Forsaken in Deatholme, together guarding the Thalassian Pass)
• Tirisfal Glades and northern Silverpine (Bulwark and Sepulcher choke points)
• eastern Hinterlands (Aerie Peak and Shadra’alor choke point)
• Badlands (Deathwing canyon chokepoint to the north, western Searing Gorge pass chokepoint, and there’s no pass to the south of Badlands)
• Swamp of Sorrows (Bogpaddle becomes Horde, choke point with Red Ridge to the North, nobody goes into Deadwind Pass because Scary, Blasted Lands is a war zone between Horde and Alliance)
• Stranglethorn (choke point with the river and the Duskwood pass)
• Underwater ruins of Vashj’ir (Giligoblin settlement, preventing naval invasion southward, only allowing possible Kul Tiran invasion from the western coast)

Everything else in EK is Alliance.

You know, if Blizzard cared to write a coherent story.

[Istreldi-dalaran]

Idk how it’s going to turn out, but I like the concept of the Horde Council (if not so much the name - just feel like it should have a cooler name). Especially since the Alliance has essentially become Stormwind’s bish. But it should have a clear leader. A Warchief. Not a dictator but a ‘first amongst equals’ situation. So decisions can be made quickly in a crisis, but if they go too far, they can be stopped. Plus the Horde just isn’t the same without a Warchief.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

updated the super chart substantially:

Incorporated:

• Turalyon as representing the seat of Lordaeron
• Overcity + Black Harvest revamped
• Darkfire Enclave = Overcity’s Sunreavers, Slaughtered Lamb Coven = Overcity’s Silver Covenant (albeit reverse, as it’s the opposite of Dalaran in that it’s Horde-leaning)
• Another Gnome guildmaster name
• Some more reps for the Horde because Jesus the Humans are just overbearing and bump Alliance numbers up
• Sun-worshipping group on the Horde of various relevant groups
• “Brotherhood of Belore” for the Sunwell Priesthood under Rommath and Liadrin jointly, run by the Archon dude from Legion

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Overcity + Black Harvest revamped

i´m still not convinced that the ebon blade would side with the horde. And no, “because Silver Hand” is no real argument…its only that you WANT the ebon blade as part of the Horde.

And…overcity? A flying city like a necropole? Would that be not Archerus?

[Chaeor-azjolnerub]

@Vespero-durotan

That assumes that Alliance forces in Andorhal wouldn’t have been likewise reallocated to the siege.

Think more than the moment of the siege of UC.
With the forces sent to UC, and then the loss and abandonment of UC, there is no defense for the position. It is also entirely cut off.
A token mop-up force of Alliance can grab it at any time. And, most likely, what non-combatants were left fled with the news of UC falling.

@Vespero-durotan

My guess is because the armistice happened before the could move on after securing Stromgarde.

In truth I think the answer is: “We didn’t think about it.” -Devs
Yet, the best military road was to march overland, securing the supply lanes. Depending on naval resupply for a siege is insanity, only for the depths of desperation.

@Aurirel-wyrmrest-accord

That isn’t a positive when said plot is just a pile of garbage that doesn’t actually offer an interesting or enjoyable future.

Not to mention…which plot?
The Faction War plot?
The help N’zoth plot?
The help Zovaal plot?
Which one is actually the plot here? And who actually believes there won’t be a new “but it was really so-and-so” soon enough?

@Vespero-durotan

And I’m a little pissed that fan reaction is probably making them walk it back, since the NEs retook Darkshore and the Forsaken will probably get UC back.

TBH I’ve been working on the assumption they intended to do that from the start anyways.

It’s not like they’ve not introduced…I dunno…a “House of Plagues”, that might know how to restore the area for the poor sufferers of undeath or anything…wait…

Not like the NE’s got sent to a place of “rebirth” that has a gateway to the mortal realms…wait…

“We may yet guide them unto their spring…”

[Vespero-durotan (Vespero)]

@Istreldi-dalaran

I like the concept of the Horde Council (if not so much the name - just feel like it should have a cooler name)

The Horde Union.
The Horde Board.
The Horde Huddle.
The Feast of the Horde!

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

Why don’t you just ask for a group of Horde aligned death knights? The dk version of SI:7 or the Sunreavers?

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

And no, “because Silver Hand” is no real argument

It is.

We are where we are now because Blizzard kept forgetting some groups were Horde groups.

The Earthen Ring is Tauren. Farseers are Orcs. The cult of Forgotten Shadow had been implied since Vanilla through the Voice Lines of Forsaken NPCs. Etc.

Alliance gets Silver Hand, Cenarion Circle, Kirin Tor, Horde gets Ebon Blade, Earthen Ring, and Black Harvest.

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

overcity? A flying city like a necropole? Would that be not Archerus?

So it’s the top of Undercity.

Undercity is left exposed in the crater and Overcity is a flying necropolis city.

Archerus is Ebon Blade only and too small.

Overcity is Horde equivalent of Dalaran + Vindicar combined.

@Arlifrex-moon-guard

Why don’t you just ask for a group of Horde aligned death knights? The dk version of SI:7 or the Sunreavers?

If I give Alliance Silver Hand, I will give Horde Ebon Blade.

If I give Alliance Dalaran and the Kirin Tor, I will give Horde an Overcity and Black Harvest.

One of the largest problems with the narrative is a total disregard for balance of power while a reversal of themes.

We literally do not have a group of antihero warlock/dark magic users at all outside of the Black Harvest

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

If I give Alliance Silver Hand, I will give Horde Ebon Blade.

But the Horde have their own paladin groups.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I will give Horde an Overcity and Black Harvest.

Or give the horde their own mage group.

You’re trying to eliminate neutral groups here, and I’m not vibing with it.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Arlifrex-moon-guard

But the Horde have their own paladin groups.

Yes but they’d be minor. Silver Hand would be the baseline, the origin of all Paladins.

I added the Order of the Bleeding Sun and slapped on all the Sun Worshippers and some Blood Moon (lunar eclipse is solar effect) groups.

Ebon Blade is the Spooky Narrative Opposite of Silver Hand, ergo why in Wrath those two groups created the temporary third group.

Thus if Silver Hand goes Alliance (Horde gets Paladin Heretics of the Sun) then Horde gets Ebon Blade (Alliance gets idk the Ivory Shield, Ebon Blade heretics, strictly DKs only, no Liches or otherwise because Bad)

@Arlifrex-moon-guard

Or give the horde their own mage group.

You’re trying to eliminate neutral groups here, and I’m not vibing with it.

Neutral groups aren’t real.

Silver Hand went from Neutral to Alliance in five seconds between Legion and BFA.

Only reason why the All Human + Dragon Council of Six isn’t Alliance is because the Horde had no equivalent. So the narrative requires them to be neutral.

Cenarion Circle should have gone alliance in BFA too.

But conversely Earthen Ring should’ve gone Horde in BFA.

Horde Mages are divided between everyone, Magisters and whatnot.

Alliance gets Flying City that is Bright High Fantasy, Horde gets Flying City that is Dark High Fantasy.

Alliance gets Foremost Light Knights, Horde gets Foremost Spooky Knights.

It’s balanced

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

Its not balanced

You know both of us have some fruit but i got an apple, you an peach. Technicaly both of us get fruits but its not the same thing

[Chaeor-azjolnerub]

In short Blizzard needs to remember their own “Gameplay First”.
And build a story environment where both sides have credible, and reasonable, frameworks for player and game story. Without making one side just evil to show off the other side.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Yup.

All neutral groups other than the Pandaria government and the Illidari should strictly be temporary allegiances between relevant groups.

Eg. The Ashen Verdict

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

Its not balanced

Silver Hand and Ebon Blade are equally complex elaborate groups actually so you’re wrong there. They are both apples.

Kirin Tor is a thousand times more important than the Black Harvest, yet my suggestion relies on developing them further to be the Horde equivalent of the Kirin Tor.

It is balanced.

You just violently resent the Horde getting any cool stuff lmao

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

No, thats not my problem. My problem is to force certain factions into horde or alliance for no reason.

An counterweight of the silver hand is not an dk faction but for example the blood knights

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

I find myself highly conflicted with the idea. I’d prefer neutral groups actually stay neutral, so that players of both factions have a sort of “second home” they can comfortably attach to without feeling like it’s going to get ripped away from them. Although ideally they’d have equal representation too. It really sucks to lose a theme you think is yours and hear “okay it belongs to the other side now.” Ostensibly this is why high elf fans were ticked that blood elves became a horde race in the first place, but they recently got their wish so it’s like whatever at this point.

But I also don’t see separate equivalents ever getting off the ground either because I don’t think Blizzard wants to spend extra time developing content like that if they don’t have to. That’s the reason why Dalaran got reused for Legion in the first place. They wanted to cut out time spent fully developing one new area, and this would expect them to maintain two of each group, all the time.

Unfortunately most of the groups have a heavier alliance attachment because they’re legacy things and that’s not going to change either. So I think the practical choices end up being “most neutral stuff is alliance leaning” or “the horde band-aids get underdeveloped as they fold into alliance stuff for neutral moments anyway.”

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

An counterweight of the silver hand is not an dk faction but for example the blood knights

Silver Hand is a multiracial coalition that is the origin of all Paladins on Azeroth

Blood Knights are a Blood Elf only group.

That is not equivalent even vaguely.

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Silver Hand is a multiracial coalition that is the origin of all Paladins on Azeroth

the silverhand started as THE HUMAN PALADIN FACTION XD…nothing else.

its an …alliancefaction…deeply rooted in to the alliance of lordaeron (not even the alliance from today)