Ideal, but fair depictment of Races- Round 1, Night Elves

Lore Story Forum
101

I think they can. Mount Hyjal and the Firelands is a good example of this, where they Night Elves can be friendly and diplomatic to those they would call as allies, and hunt down their enemies (i.e. Ragnaros) until they’re not a threat any more.

They Night Elves can easily be both diplomatic and savage. I just think everything would have been better off if the Night Elves had been diplomatic with the Horde, and savage against the Legion/Twilight’s Hammer/Etc.

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102

its important to keep in mind that gender roles in Kaldorei society are reversed than irl humans. Kaldorei are very much matriarchal, with women mostly being the warriors and political figures. Where the men are said to be more passive, and those who are not druids often pick up a trade or are basically stay at home dads.

I tend to think of the Kaldorei family unite similar to that of Lion’s Pride, minus the one male, many females thing. Though, pre-WC3, that was the original idea.

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103

Night Elves are definitely matriarchal. However, Malfurion was a considerable figure to even the Wardens, as exemplified by Maiev in The Frozen Throne expansion.

Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne, Chapter 4, “Wrath of the Betrayer”:

    Maiev Shadowsong: We cannot escape, but perhaps we can send for reinforcements. Summon the runner! She must reach the shoreline and sail back to Kalimdor. With any luck, Shan'do Stormrage will reach us before we're overrun! Be swift, sister!

    Maiev Shadowsong: Elune grant that she reaches Shan’do Stormrage in time. If not, Illidan may never be stopped.

Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne, Chapter 5, “Balancing the Scales”:

    Maiev Shadowsong: Hold your ground, my warriors! Goddess willing, Shan'do Stormrage will come.

    Maiev Shadowsong: Elune be praised! I knew you would come, Shan’do Stormrage!
    Malfurion Stormrage: I’m glad we reached you in time, Maiev.
    Maiev Shadowsong: Priestess Tyrande, I’m surprised you came in person. Are you here to absolve your guilty conscience?
    Tyrande Whisperwind: I did what I had to do, Maiev. You are in no position to judge me.
    Maiev Shadowsong: What you did was murder my Watchers and set the Betrayer free! It is you who should be locked in a cage.
    Malfurion Stormrage: Stop this, both of you! We’re not out of danger yet. Maiev, what’s the situation here?
    Maiev Shadowsong: There are no resources left in this area, Shan’do. We’ll need to find a gold mine if we’re to marshal more troops for an assault on Illidan’s compound.
    Malfurion Stormrage: Very well. Let’s get moving, then.

    Maiev Shadowsong: Victory is ours! It has been an honor to fight at your side, Shan’do.
    Malfurion Stormrage: This battle is far from over, Maiev. Illidan has yet to be accounted for, and I’ve seen no sign of Tyrande, either.

Incidentally, in this same chapter, Tyrande does admit fault for freeing Illidan.

    Illidan Stormrage: Tyrande! What are you doing here? This battle does not concern you.
    Tyrande Whisperwind: I was wrong to set you free, Illidan. I can see that now. You've become a monster.
    Illidan Stormrage: Monster? Is that what you think of me? I have always...cared about you, Tyrande. I sought only to prove my worthiness--my power!
    Tyrande Whisperwind: Raw power is no substitute for true strength, Illidan. That is why I chose your brother over you.

Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne, Chapter 6, “Shards of the Alliance”:

    Maiev Shadowsong: Our forces will be ready to move out soon, although we still know next to nothing about this strange land Illidan has run to.
    Malfurion Stormrage: This land is called Lordaeron, Maiev. It is the homeland of the Alliance that aided us at the Battle of Mount Hyjal. I was told that its kingdoms, both human and elven, were consumed by the undead Scourge. These forests have suffered grievously. I must leave you both for a time. I will enter the woods and attempt to commune with the land itself.
    Maiev Shadowsong: While you're gone, we'll set out and try to pick up Illidan's trail. Malfurion Stormrage: I expect you both to stay focused on your task. You can settle your personal dispute after we've found my brother.
    Maiev Shadowsong: Of course, Shan'do. We'd best get moving.

Addressing someone as Shan’do in Night Elf culture is to hold them in extreme reverence, even - or perhaps especially - by those who aren’t Druids.

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104

My point was that Kaldorei men are described as being more passive, and thus, probably more likely to be even tempered enough to pursue diplomatic solutions as opposed to violent ones.

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105

I agree with you that this is likely over all. Of course there are exceptions (Fandral was a massive and agressive jerk, to say the least).

I mostly wanted to clarify that even though Night Elves are matriarchal, people often confuse this with Malfurion not having been an a figure of authority back in Warcraft III, when he was definitely respected and revered culturally.

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106

the exact quote was “knew how to defend themselves” that does not equate to stand toe to toe with orcish elite any more than when Kael’thalas sunstrider states that in quel’thalas even the average citizen knows how to use magic and knowledge isn’t reserved to old men in robes equates to every blood elf is on par with elite mages of the kirin’tor elite even if they aren’t magi. Mal’furion did the vast majority of the heavy lifting along with the ACTUAL Night Elf military.

107

Except they did. The War of Thorns was an extremely costly endeavor for the Horde.

The Night Elf Military wasn’t there. It was civilians and militia.

Malfurion did a lot, but if he was capable of doing it all on his own, then there wouldn’t have been any need to conscript the civilians in the first place.

Unless you are implying that Kaldorei were conscripted solely for the purpose of fodder, then we have to assume they were just as capable as the most seasoned of Orcish warriors. I am inclined to believe the ladder, not just because I like elves, but because Terran Gregory himself said that the orc Commander in Darkshore was a seasoned veteran of several wars, and yet he only experience is fighting civilian Kaldorei.

Not only in Darkshore, but her entire military career it seems like. He even mentioned Orc patrols in Ashenvale mostly deal with the Kaldorei who just live there, which implies that the Horde has little experience fighting trained Kaldorei military at all.

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108

I mean, to be fair, there was some military, it was the City Guard or whatever the name, but yes, the bulk of the forces weren’t there.

109

Considering the Night elves couldn’t handle the Warsong clan with the help of a wild god I really REALLY find those claims hard to believe. A single clan drove back the Night Elf Military and you claim that they have some as of yet displayed skill set that puts even the most basic civilian can stand against the Hordes best.

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110

They decimated the Warsong… the Warsong were forced to drink the Demon Blood just to contend with them.

It was actually just the Shadowleaves, a single contingent of Night Elves that patrolled the boarders. We don’t see the Kaldorei military in force until we play as Tyrande, who was leader of the Sentinels at the time.

Also, we don’t really know all that was involved in that conflict, since it was designed for mechanic reasons. All we know for certain is Grom was losing so bad it drove him back to the demon blood.

I don’t make that claim, I acknowledge that Blizzard’s story devs said it.

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111

No the orcs drove the night elves back when they had multiple units I can pull it right now on the Warcraft game, and they showed back up with a wild god because of how brutally they were destroyed the first time. So again the night elves had a force that out numbered the warsong and the help of a wild god before the orcs decided to drink demon blood to not be wiped out, and again they still lost with the help of A NATURE GOD. The quote was “knew well enough to defend themselves” not “could stand toe to toe with”. the night elves also weren’t fighting the bulk of the horde as we know the army split to encircle and out maneuver them.

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112

That’s not a totally accurate portrayal to how things went. Because as I said, it was designed to support RTS mechanics. What happened, Lore wise, is the Warsong and Night Elves started to skirmish. Cenarius came by, and the Warsong got annihilated.

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113

Actually we have this specified, too, that most of what the Orcs have been fighting for all these years have been civilians:

From Terran Gregory at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEHc8le_Qpk&t=10m04s :

    Here name is Shendruk. She was created for this cutscene. We imagined that this is someone who’s been actually probably a soldier on the battle lines in this region, you know, between like the orcish line of going into Ashenvale. She’s probably a character who’s been there, right, and that had some experience. And I know there’s been some conversation about the way she talks about Night Elves. Part and parcel, right, when you’re not talking about the game mechanics, right - we know that Night Elves are insanely powerful - but part and parcel, if you’ve lived in this world, there’s going to be a lot of Night Elves in this forest that are just civilians, right? When she’s been patrolling that area, by and large, she’s probably only witnessed, you know, conflicts between the normal Night Elves. You know, the ones that just live [there]. You would have never encountered the Archdruid. You never would have ever encountered [a “single Night Elf” that “could do all that”], right? So a lot of her impressions are just based on like, “Oh, yeah, I’ve seen- I’ve had scuffles with the Night Elves for however many years and I’ve never had any trouble with them,” right?

From Terran Gregory at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEHc8le_Qpk&t=52m58s :

    She’s very dismissive. And the faces even, right? Incredibly well animated. While he knows- * Points dramatically at Nathanos * - He knows exactly how serious this is. And she’s all like, “Pff. Whatever,” because again, as we talked at the beginning, she has dealt with, you know, ordinary Night Elves probably her whole career defending, you know, the Barrens fronts. Never personally encountered Malfurion. But he has * Pointing at Nathanos again. * He knows exactly who he’s talking about.

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114

the warsong got annihilated? which is why Cenarius died and the warsong clan was at the defense of mount hyjal? Lore wise what happened is what I’ve already stated in the above, elves attacked were drove back came back in larger numbers with a wild god wild god dies, and the elves fled.

115

Yeah… So bad that the Warsong had to go back to the Demon Blood… and force Thrall to join forces with Jaina Proudmoore… and literally fight a mini civil War before they could establish a permanent settlement in Kalimdor…

Wasn’t it you who said you had a problem with “Dishonest portrayals”

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116

Hey buddy. I think you might have missed the end of the Legion expansion. The demons were defeated. There’ll be no more demon blood for the Horde to power itself up with in Ashenvale.

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117

It’s amazing that I can pull something from the rts that shows what happened when the regular Night Elf military went up against elite horde troops and you somehow neglect the fact that the Warsong were winning before they even drank demon blood and were only losing when a god made the forest come to life to push them back so yeah i’d say the elves were pretty outclassed before a wild god showed up

118

I’m amazed you can ignore the post literally above yours that is a wall of text of Terran Gregory quotes.

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119

I read your post about how they wanted to portray the horde at the darkshore war front as only used to fighting civilians or town guards how ever again it wasn’t like the Night Elves won or that they didn’t have another living embodiment of nature helping them. I am giving an example of what happened when regular night elf troops fought horde elites in an attempt to display how powerful the regular night elf military was which again was not slaughtering the horde as if they were nothing but rather losing.

120

I think its funny how the Orcs defending themselves is a “Horde Victory” But earlier in this very thread you said this:

But it matters little because the Night Elves were a single contingent of patrolling Sentinels that skirmished with the Warsong. The rest of the Kaldorei arrived with Cenarius.

Oh, and by the way… way to move the goal post, because what you originally said was this:

And when it was revealed you were wrong, you contradicted yourself with:

Which is still not true… the Warsong outnumbered the Kaldorei prior to Cenarius’ involvement.

The really funny thing is how stretched you are for examples, that you are literally using the time the Warsong needed Demon Blood to succeed…

How about Cata when the Horde failed on all fronts against the Night Elves?

How about in WC3 when Tyrande defeats a elite joint army of Horde and Alliance?

Or the time the Night Elves showed up in Gilneas, Decimated a Horde Airship, and managed to escaped with Gilnean civilians before the Horde even knew what happened? BTW, that wasn’t even a military force… they didn’t even know the Horde was attacking Gilneas, they came to help with the Worgen curse.

Remember when Tyrande broke down the gates of Ogrimmar when the Horde was standing outside with their thumbs up their rear?

Remember when Tyrande held off an army of Scourge so Kael’thas could escape?

And finally, remember when the Kaldorei nearly fought off the full might of the Horde will town militia and conscripted civilians?

Hmmmmm :thinking:

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