Oh I’m so glad you got that reference. I didn’t really want to explain the convoluted chain of events that lead to it. I mean seriously, who trusts a guy who looks like he can’t go within 500 metres of a school?
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(Fisthook)
Guidonis emerges with a proton pack strapped to his back, theme music blaring
Smells like ghosts in here!
Eyes Grandblade’s ectoplasm, flicks a switch and the pack whirrs to life
Gui! he sings
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I think the real issue I have with depictions of night elves, and what would factor into my ideal writing for them, is that we just don’t see enough cultural contrasts, especially on the Alliance where it would matter the most.
The night elves are just too nice, frankly. Ideally, they should not have been the ones to teach tauren druidism, the tauren should have learned that themselves and been more distinct. The Cenarion Circle would be nelf only, as well.
The conflict between orcs and night elves is also something I would like to be somewhat different. They can still be enemies, but Grom Hellscream calling them the perfect warriors opens up a much more nuanced relationship between the two races.
Orcs: We need the lumber.
NE: We don’t want to give you the lumber.
Orcs: Then we need to try and take it from you.
NE: Bring it.
Orcs: Alright. You guys are still great fighters though. Mad respect.
NE: Same. Now die.
Ideally I’d want to see more fish out of water stories and depictions between both night elves and the other Alliance races, especially the classic ones. A night elf ambassador who is staying at a noble’s estate, and the servants walk in only to find she’s blocked all the windows and make a blanket fort because the sun’s too bright for her to sleep. Humans staying with night elves and being too spooked to sleep because they’re surrounded by giant maneating cats as well.
Guild Wars 2 did this sort of thing quite well, and in a revamped WoW starting from scratch I feel it would add a ton of character to the races.
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Bumping mostly because there’s a couple of Night Elf mains that having put their opinions yet. Also because i think this theme is cool.
If you don’t want to post it, I get it. Having to think about all the times where Blizz spat you in the face to form a good argument is definitively painful, but i think that more contributions to this would help the regulars on SF have a better idea of “Ideal but fair” expectations of the fandom.
To be honest I am confused when it comes to the Night Elves being depowered. In WC3 RoC + TfT it shows the Night Elf homelands being destroyed by the Burning Legion and the Scourge like a wave of destruction and death. In TfT it showed the aftermath of Archi’s defeat and the woods were still corrupted and filled with undead. So much so that Illidan and the Naga had to save Tyrande from the remnants of the Scourge.
Even in Classic there are demons infecting Ashenvale. Satyrs, packs of demons, and even some Dreadlords infecting the land. Felwood was still tainted by the Fel, well with what it being called Felwood and all.
Sure the NEs lost Chimeras and Stone Giants, but with how badly they got hit by the Burning Legion, it probably wouldn’t have made a difference in terms of power. Henceforth why they had to join a faction, to even cleanse and recover their lost lands from the BL and the Scourge.
Then supposedly Chronicles states the opposite where they alone can hold back and fend off the Horde. Despite our main capital being right on their borders. Now I’ve gone cross eyed, confused, and head is spinning just thinking about it. WC3 shows one thing, WoW shows another, yay for retcons I guess.
Now for my suggestion, honestly keep the Night Warrior aspect. It kind of brings them back to their WC3 days me thinks. Show NEs become more savage, matriarchal, anything WC3 related. Have them take back Felwood and Wintergrasp. Because really Felwood should be cleansed at this point with no more BL. Wintergrasp should have been NE lands to begin with, not some sort of neutral snow place.
Have Night Elves wear their own armor AND NOT Stormwind armor. Have the NEs embrace their night side by being active at Night. Maybe when it reaches a certain late time on the servers, have the Alliance guards switch to Night Elf guards in capital cities. Make it sort of a late night shift sort of thing, and again while in Night Elf armor.
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Having read through this thread and seen other people’s ideals, I believe my post is going to be quite the opposite of a lot of what has been calling for.
My “ideal, but fair” depiction of the Night Elves would be one of peace and diplomacy, a bridge of co-existence between the Alliance and the Horde. One where the idea of xenophobia doesn’t exist any more. After befriending and aiding both the Draenei and the Gilneans into the Alliance; after the Cenarion Circle took in the Tauren, Worgen, and even the Darkspear Trolls; after seeing many Gnomes, Dwarves, Draenei, and Humans living in Night Elf towns all across Kalimdor; after Night Elf forces banded together with Sunwalker Tauren to defend Stoneplow and were welcomed into the Vale of Eternal Blossoms; and especially after Genn Greymane went from the man who left the Alliance and built a wall to keep everyone else away to a man who preaches unity because of how much the Night Elves did for him and his people, the Night Elves should have stayed the most inclusive, diplomatic, and friendly race around.
And there should have been more of that. From the very beginning, from the lessons they learned in Warcarft III:
Warcraft III, Chapter 4, “The Druids Arise”:
- Furion Stormrage: So, the outlanders battle against the undead as well? They could prove to be powerful allies against Archimonde and his ilk.
Warcraft III, Chapter 7, “Twilight of the Gods”:
- Furion Stormrage: To arms, my brethren! To arms, brave orcs and humans! Twilight falls -- and the enemy awaits!
The Night Elves should have always been on good terms with both the Alliance and the Horde. Even if the Night Elves joined the Alliance, the Horde should have seen the Night Elves as their allies. Warsong Gulch never should have been a battleground. The Horde never should have attacked the Night Elves. Not during Classic. Not during Cataclysm. The Night Elves should have never cut of trade after the Wrathgate. The Horde and the Night Elves should always have been on good terms. The War of the Thorns should have never been a thought the Horde would have allowed to pass through their minds.
We see these Warcraft III roots again in the Rage of the Firelands quest “The Nordrassil Summit”:
- Malfurion Stormrage says: Greetings, friends.
Malfurion Stormrage says: I sense a vast power has grown within you, young Thrall. You've achieved much, since last we met.
Thrall says: Master Stormrage, It's good to have you back in the waking world.
Mount Hyjal. Val’sharah. These exemplify what the Night Elves should have always been in WoW. Even during and after Garrosh’s war, Malfurion and Tyrande respectively were willing to forgive the Horde and live in peace. And the Night Elves could have continued being that bridge for peace if the people running WoW didn’t keep writing that the Horde has to be aggressive towards the Night Elves as the primary means for the Horde to have a story.
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Agreed with Night Elves not being xenophobic. Posters keep claiming that they should, when in fact the entire Night Elf heroic journey in WC3 was to stop being xenophobic. They had to face that demon, literally and figuratively, and band together with the Horde and the Alliance to defeat the Burning Legion.
The diplomatic part, and peaceful part going to have to disagree with. Humans are the diplomatic race, even having the racial “Diplomacy.” Which is the crux of the Night Elf problem, and the Alliance problem in general. All the Alliance races are too mogenized to humans. You have your human, humans. Short, bearded humans. Short, short, funny, smart humans. Big, blue, space goat alien humans. Furry humans. All Alliance races are basically the same.
If Orcs can be savage, yet honorable then I don’t see how the Night Elves can’t be savage, yet matriarchal and noble. … Well Orcs are suppose to be savage, yet honorable, not sure if they still are now.
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I would rather say that simply Diplomacy is a gameplay racial playable Human characters shouldn’t have, and then that’s not an issue with how diplomatic Night Elves could have been.
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I identify with the Night Elf race because of the influences that comes from European Paganism. Wicca, which is a modern religion birth from Paganism, worships The Goddess of the Triple Moon, which is the idea of a Moon Goddess who’s phases are different faces of her divinity.
The inspiration comes from Germanic/Norse Paganism, and the Triple Moon is represented in Wicca by the Triquetra symbol, which shares a resemblance with Odin’s Valknut. The similarities continue with the Triple Moon representing The Mother, Crone and Maiden, representing Life, Death and rebirth respectively. Elune’s Mother Moon and Night Warrior phases also resembles this, as does Odin’s Valknut, a “Knot of power” that Odin can tighten and loosen upon the mind and body of mortals. Odin is the God of Death and Wisdom, and as such he is a God of Adversity, and a metaphor for Wisdom earned through the hard trials of life, and life’s cycle of destruction and creation. This is again reaffirmed with the Night Elves’ “Idol of Wisdom” Which is the Racial sigil of the Night Elves, which happens to resemble a Valknut in the form of a Glaive.
The comparison continues with Night Elven matriarchy, Elune seeming to be a direct inspiration of Odin and The Triple Moon Goddess, and thus a Goddess of Adversity, but also a Goddess that established Femininity as divine. This is made clear with the Sisterhood being restricted to only Women for thousands of years under the belief that Only Women can know the heart of the Goddess.
To summarize, the Kaldorei are Wood Elves with Euro-Pagan themes, notably in the Celtic and Norse spheres. They have far-East Asian accents, such as Taoist archways, Kimchi, and other Asian flavors. The Highborne are more Greco-Roman in their architecture, and likely lose some of the philosophical and religious aspects listed above due to a deviation from the faith. That doesn’t necessarily mean there are no religious Highborne.
I imagine a race as long lived, nature centric, and embracing of challenges as the Kaldorei are, gives the average night elf a alluring contrast of savageness and refinement. The mental image of a Priestess, wearing a blood stained, elegant gown, which reveals a scarred and muscular figure. With Blood on her face and wine on her breath. It would make sense for the Night Elves to be somewhat disturbing to other races, with a horrifying casualness to violence.
There are a few sayings that I hold in reserve when RPing my Nelf.
“Savages are more discourteous than the civilized. Civilized people can speak offensively without worry their head may be bashed in.”
“Domestication is thralldom to a natural, wild and sovereign being. True Freedom lies in barbarism.”
“Where you see evil, act out against it. Let your enemies not know peace.”
“Tradition is not the worship of the ashes but the preservation of the fire.”
“A culture that separates it’s scholars from it’s warriors will have it’s thinking done by cowards and fighting done by fools.”
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Even if you removed the Diplomacy racial trait and still have all the Alliance races diplomatic, that would still be problematic. It would be the humans are diplomatic, the Night Elves are also diplomatic. Then we go right where we were at pre-Night Warrior, that being Night Elves are just tall, purple, pointy eared humans.
This goes against the Night Elf style in their WC3 era. The shoot first, ask questions later style. The territorial style. The hoist Orc heads on vines in trees as a warning style. Sure tone it down for a faction game but don’t remove it entirely. Or don’t go overboard Forsaken style and kill all that isn’t purple, that too is bad.
Granted you already did say you’re vouching for something that most people commenting here have disagreed with, and that’s good. Debates and conversations are great. “Though I don’t agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
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Night Elves and diplomacy… Hm.
I wouldn’t say they are undiplomatic, but I also wouldn’t consider them diplomatic either. We have seen them strike friendships with several races pre-Alliance. Notably Tauren, Dryads, Mountain giants, Dragons. Though, you can argue that their relationship with the Tauren was a lore choice made for the sake of faction balance (Horde needed a druid race). And all the other relations they had came from a place of exalted respect for nature and the divine.
It’s hard to say how “Shoot first” the Kaldorei were during the Long Vigil. Personally, I like to think they killed any and all who came to Ashenvale. However, we are not sure if they attacked the Warsong because of that, or if it was a combination of cutting down sacred trees, attacking nature spirits, and fel corruption.
I think Night Elves are Xenophobic by their nature. Yet, they have the intellect to understand the advantages of diplomacy, and thus are willing and capable of it. However, I think being approached by Kaldorei emissaries would be very rare.
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When Odin places his finger upon the life of a mortal who has acquitted himself well in battle, they are gifted with the all powerful berserker’s rage, and lay waste to all who stand before them, friend and foe alike. Such is their might that they forego the need for weapons, tearing their subjugates apart with gnarled reddened fingers.
They froth at the mouth, seeing the spirit world and living plane alike, for all who live are destined to die and all who behold the berserker rage are fated to fall at the berserker’s hands. Those who wear the Valknut upon their body open themselves to this honor, and subjugate all foolish enough to be caught.
They do not hug trees, they do not worship nature, they are meatgrinders made flesh and there is no similarity between them and the nelves. Odin would not tolerate the petulant demands Tyrande makes to Elune.
What kind of Goddess is that? You yell at her and she makes your eyes black, and then you cant even Kill more than one Valkyr.
Neither do Nevles
Odinism is rooted in nature.
Absolutely he would. Odin is no tyrant. In Odinism, the Gods are mortal. All must die, gods included, foretold in the Prophecy of the Seers.
You have a gross misunderstanding of what Odin and Odinsim is. Which is not uncommon, people often get lost in fables and sagas, and much of it is lost in translation.
Prayers to Odin are met with offers to tread the harsher path. He shows the path, but you must walk it. He cultivates in you the ability to fight for yourself. He is a god of warriors, not because he’s a warrior, but because is the god of death, victor over death, guardian of souls, brought out of the darkness and placed on the throne of Asgard. Odin gives you strength, by giving you trials which force you to be stronger.
Strength through Adversity.
He will upset your life. He will find your weaknesses and poke at them, first with a stick, later with a spear, until you either overcome them or fall trying. You will learn new ways to be broken. He made extreme sacrifices for wisdom and knowledge, and expects his followers to sacrifice as well. He will kill parts of you. He offers wisdom to those who endure, but may betray to those who love or worship him. Don’t expect compassion for a handicap, injury, age, or weakness. Find where you are strong and capable in spite of any drawbacks. Crying out to Odin to give you strength as you fall will only results in you finding your own strength to stand back up, and face whatever is next. And there will be a next. And a next after that.
He does not care if you believe in him, made demands of him, curse his name. He cares only if you have the strength to endure and overcome.
Battle is not the only adversity Odin deals with. Facing a disease with honor and bravery makes one worthy of Valhalla. Battle is only one facet of life during the Viking age, but life itself is a cycle of destruction, depicted by the Serpent Jörmungandr eating its own tail.
Please keep in mind that this is still a religion that is practiced, and that you shouldn’t speak on it ignorantly without risk of offending someone.
Yet, this is consistent with the Night Elves and their Idol of Wisdom, represented by a Glaive, which resembles the Valknut, which resembles the Triquetra, which is the Symbol of the Triple Moon in Wicca, which derives from Celtic and Norse Paganism…
The parallels are plain as day.
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First I have to say that Night Elves can easilly be the best race to reprsent the balance between Aristrocracy and Wild Savagery. It should not be one or another.
Second I would like to see night elves display all her different aspects because as it is we only get to see their Druidic aspect. I’d be awesome to see their full might once again in battle. With this I mean the use of Sentinels, Priestesses of the Moon, Highborne mages, Wardens and of course Druids.
It doesnt matter is they lose battles as long as they are given the chance to use their full potential and not be limited by external circumstances.
For example, Malfurion usually being busy somewhere else, Tyrande being away in Stormwind, Their army being across the world, etc.
Even if nothing else changes, what I would like to see is they being proven right for once. Let their choices matter and be meaninful. Let them take the lead without asking for permission to anyone else. They used to be their own faction so they should be treated as such even if they are equal members of the Alliance.
Finally stop the homogenization. Night Elves are not Humans. So please stop writing them like them.
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This, i like this. Peak “Ideal but fair” response imo
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Right I forgot, you cant hug a tree thats been burned down. I just rolled my eyes so hard it caused an Oculogyric crisis. Sagas and Tales are all we have, and they exist for a reason.
And yes Strength through adversity, not strength through whining, not strength for spitting in the face of your own deity.
I am not lost, I am woke.
Yeah, but the Wisdom of the Havamal puts much into context in relation to Odinist Philosophy. You spoke mostly on the mythology of the berserkers, who were not the only followers of Odin’s path. So you are ignoring actually religious context in favor of Mystified War Stories.
Not sure who is whining, but even so, whine as much as you want as long as you overcome that adversity in the end game. It doesn’t matter so much.
Again, it doesn’t matter so much. Odin isn’t so weak where he cares how mortals think of him.
You are trolling lol.
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The night elves are a mid weight power with a strong military the sisters of elune, the druids and the ancients along with a mastery of asymmetrical warfare any battle brought to them within northern Kal will be brutal. the night elves suffer from the same weakness that all long lived races do though low birth rates and a type of stubbornness/ arrogance that could only be shared by the elves. The night elves could win a short war and with how they do things most wars they fight are, but a prolonged war of attrition would see them losing. I think the night elves could handle just about any individual race on equal or superior footing but being so isolated from their allies really puts them at the mercy of the horde even if they do put up a good fight.
Havemal is a big part of those stories…
Whining is a sign of self betrayal (the most grievous sin of all) it is the mark of a nithing. Not caring for mortals doesnt mean you let someone talk trash to your face (again self betrayal) no matter who you are.
Im pretty sure its you who needs to work on their philosophy.
And yet you are ignoring the Wisdom of it.
Not really. it might be a sign of self betrayal, but that is just another adversity to overcome. Odinism is not so dogmatic, in fact, one of the Nine Odinist Values is “Realism is better than dogmatism”.
So, again, you are speaking ignorantly and without context of Odinist philosophy. It is likely due to a personal distaste for Night Elves. So if we are going to talk about self betrayal, might want to look inwardly instead of outwardly.
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