Idea to appeal both sides of M+ leavers

Community General Discussion
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You know that raiderio will show you exactly how many keys players within a given bracket have completed yes? A quick glance will tell you all you need to know. Do you honestly think that there is an actual tangible difference between a 14 and a 15? This is a serious question. If someone is capable of doing a 14, they are easily capable of a 15. Especially in the current season.

There are people who purchase KSM carries, yes. I have yet to group with a single one of these in any group I’ve been in. If you’re making the claim that someone managed to get carried in random groups all the way to KSM…I’m sorry. I don’t believe that one.

A five doesn’t have complete mechanics and affixes, so this is intellectually dishonest. I stand by my claim. If you can do mechanics in a 10, you can do them in a 24. Once you hit a certain level, everything becomes a scaling issue. When you’re able to effectively handle mechanics in M+, all you need is the group composition and the gear level appropriate to the key you’re doing.

A key not depleting is not the same thing as a key advancing should you fail the dungeon. I’m fine with people failing. I fail. I do not agree with the key regressing upon failure however. There’s no reason a 15 should not be a 15 unless the player holding the key decides it should be lower. There are far too many variables at play to make key depletion anything other than a completely bad system design.

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There is an objective difference in scaling yes. If someone is able to complete a 14 I would say they are likely to be able to do a 15. If they were carried through the 14, then no they are not able to do the 15.

So your experience determines what is plausible or not. You have only timed 18 keys +15 and up, I would not say you have the best sample size of determining that.

I have Timed 427 +15 and up keys this expansion and I can assure you that I have run into players who clearly were carried. Players doing 4k DPS overall in a +18 is dead giveaway. Players constantly dying to the same mechanics, frontals, bosses, are a dead giveaway.

Okay bring a person who can do a +10 into a +20, same result and they will fail. The mechanics themselves are the same yes, but:

Additionally, as the key level goes up the required group play and synergy does too. Someone with experience in +10s do not have what it takes to run a +20.

I didn’t say that. I said that they will be able to keep posting that +15 until it turns into a +16 and so on, which will advance the key when they are not ready for it.

Incomprehensible

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If we’re arguing anecdotes, then there will always be a biased slant to it. I’m totally fine accepting that my sample size isn’t great, but I’m also willing to bet that

this is extremely rare.

You’re arguing past me. I didn’t make the claim that someone doing a +10 and that’s all their experience is will be able to handle a +20. I made the claim that +20 is artificially harder than a +10 due to scaling. The mechanics in a 10 and a 20 are exactly the same. If you can do mechanics in a 10, you can do them in a 20. Do I think that you should be in a 20 if all you’ve been doing is 10s? Obviously not, but it isn’t due to actual real difficulty but mob health and damage.

I mean…says whom? If someone does a 15 key an arbitrary amount of times (let’s say 10 times) before they finally get their key up to a 16…I feel like yea. They can probably handle a 16 after doing a 15 that many times.

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I’ve seen it multiple times just last week alone. Even more often, me the tank, doing more dps overall than the dps. Even before my 4 set bonus.

Yes, both of us are sharing anecdotes, but most people would agree that experience in 427 timed runs would weigh much more heavily than 18. Anecdote, yes, but the sample size of 427 is great enough to make some inferences.

It is not “artificially” more difficult, it is objectively more difficult.

You are making assumptions and believing that the general player base self-reflects and improves. People continuously fail on mechanics. I see it all the time. Even with “10 times of experience”.

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It’s the best part about these threads tbh.

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Fair enough. Come tank this 17 streets for me though. As riveting as the forum banter is (and I love it) I’m unable to find a tank this morning.

Sambouki#1202 =)

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All of these systems players come up with have to have a stupid loophole to justify the creators own desire to leave a group when they want because when they leave its fine but if someone else leaves their group then they need to punished as harshly as possibly for inconveniencing them.

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I’d be glad to run with you, but I am at work. I will be home later though and will run it if you still have it.

I agree and I appreciate you being able to respectfully have a discussion of differing opinions. Unlike some others I run across.

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This is absolutely a thing, and it’s how people end up with keys they don’t belong in. Remember that rating never goes down, and KSM is based on rating. Someone doesn’t have to be good, they just have to be willing to fail enough times at a dungeon until they make a group capable of carrying them. Repeat that enough for all 10 dungeons and you have someone with KSM who doesn’t know what they’re doing, and doesn’t belong there, but has the rating and achievement nonetheless. I have absolutely carried groups to a timed 15 who shouldn’t have finished, and there’s a part of me that thinks I did the community a disservice by not abandoning them when it was clear they weren’t ready.

Sure, but the people who can’t do mechanics in a 10, but think they can because they finished on time still can’t do the mechanics in a 15, or 20, or 30, but their failures end up being more consequential the higher you go.

I’ve never tried (and don’t want to), but I might be able to finish a NW +10 on time with everyone else dying to the first Comet Storm. But I can’t do that on a +18, and even if we wipe fast and still have time to finish, it doesn’t matter when they die the same way on the next pull.

I had a hunter who yelled at the healer that they got no heals during Comet Storm, and that’s why they died. In a +18. How do you think that happens? It’s because they didn’t die in the +10, and got healed through it and they now believe that is an acceptable norm.

What you’re saying may be true in the abstract, but the fact is, there is a huge number of people failing in the +10 and not knowing, and continuing to fail as they climb the ranks. I’m sure a substantial portion of the people looking to indenture other players into finishing keys are these same people but they don’t even know it. They just think people are trolling them.

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70

Maybe I just think that people aren’t as malicious as this. I’m willing to concede that it’s possible, but everyone I’ve grouped with just doesn’t seem this way to me. In the small handful of keys past 15 I’ve done, everyone seems usually to know their stuff. I will say that I’m very aware of when leaving is going to occur however. Particularly bad wipes on things that should be wiped on kill groups pretty quickly. I’ve seen this happen a handful of times in the opening moments of dungeons.

Do I think those players should be punished? I do not. I also do not think that a key should deplete due to it either.

I still have an issue with this line of reasoning. I think that the word ‘carry’ isn’t very clearly defined in the context that we’re both using it. When I think of carry, I think of someone who is fundamentally unable to complete the dungeon mechanically, and spends a large portion of their time in the dungeon dead.

I am also willing to accept the fact that their dps not being as high as it should could qualify as being carried, but this particular interpretation is muddy. If someone is below the tank in terms of dps overall…then yes I’d contend that they’ve been carried. If they’re third place on the meter overall (which I frequently am as frost mage, and maybe I’m not very good) I don’t know that I consider that being carried.

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I’m all for adding more data for making decisions. Ultra toxic players would end up being forced to play with each other and it would be superb to see.

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Do you know what would be silly? Getting rid of keys.

Because then this wouldn’t be a problem and we wouldn’t have interesting threads like this because the issues would be solved once and for all.

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That’s the problem. People try to suggest things that they havnt thought through which would often add far more problems than they solve or bigger problems. I don’t begrudge anyone for trying to think of improvements but often they are such ridiculous suggestions that I don’t see how they can be serious

Edit. Lol right on que 2 seconds after I posted there is a perfect example lol

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Give a 1 day deserter debuff for anyone leaving a key before the timer is up

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:roll_eyes:   

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I don’t think dead is a requirement. I think in paid carries the person is often dead because it’s easier to complete the boss or dungeon more easily short a person than with someone alive who can actively hurt them (failing at wipe mechanics, pulling extra packs by mistake, etc.).

If there is an adequate level of play that each member of the group needs to perform at, and someone is below that level, forcing everyone else to play at a higher level in order to succeed, then the lower performer is being carried. This doesn’t mean that the weakest person in each group is automatically being carried. As long as they are performing at an adequate level for the key, and no one needs to cover their mistakes, they are fine, even if the other players are outperforming them. It’s only an issue if they are an actual hindrance to the group.

Honestly, dps is the least of my concerns for whether or not someone is being carried (barring afk type, below tank levels of damage). I would rather have a group with lower dps that times with only seconds to spare than a high dps group that misses the timer because they fail at boss mechanics over and over, wiping the group.

The higher you go in keys, the more important it is to use the utilities available to streamline the process. There comes a point where failure to do so means you are hindering the group and are getting carried. Interrupts obviously, but things like Monks not using RoP to help drop Necrotic, anyone with a decurse not using it if the felhounds in streets get a cast off, Stuns, pushbacks, and other cc for non-interruptible casts. These become necessary, and failure to do them ends up making someone a carry, because the rest of the group has to make up for one person’s omissions.

Not managing affixes is a bigger deal than dps. Keep getting hit with spiteful over and over again? Carry. Decide that you would rather the group wipe than hit an explosive orb? Carry. Won’t pop a defensive, or potion, or healthstone if you have stacks of grievous after taking avoidable damage (or even unavoidable really)? Carry. Can’t stop dps for 2 seconds to avoid taking that 9 stack of bursting that’s about to expire to 10? Carry.

For clarity’s sake, this doesn’t apply at every key level, but at 15 and beyond, if these things are happening, the person doing them isn’t playing at an adequate level, and any success they experience is on the backs of better players.

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How many days of debuff for the people who keep tunneling damage into the mobs while there are 5 explosive orbs about to go off? How many days of debuff for people who don’t kill adds in the first boss of NW? How many days of debuff for failing at any number of affixes or mechanics? Or in your world, should people be expected to sit through a train wreck of a group until the timer actually hits zero? Because maybe, in the next 30 minutes they will suddenly figure out how to play?

Stop trying to hold better players hostage so you can get vault slots you haven’t earned.

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78

Pointless. Leavers aren’t a real problem, just a forum boogeyman.

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The problem with this line of thinking is that the key not being downgraded would encourage just as toxic behavior on the PL’s side. If the pulls did not go exactly how you intend…just kick whoever didn’t do it right, reset the dungeon and go again. You’d see far more elitism when PL’s have nothing to lose and only to gain in this situation.

The key downgrading does two things. It allows for the party members to have some skin in the game through and it allows you to run the key again but on an easier difficulty in the event you still want to do the same dungeon so you aren’t fully locked out of keys for the week simply because you aren’t good enough for the key level you have.

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Yeah, they want a fix to something that isn’t broken. No wonder Blizzard hasn’t acted yet.

Yeah, because the people working on the dungeon finder are surely the same people who are working on the spells for the Evoker. Plus, lots of people have been asking for a dragon class.