I really enjoy Survival

Classes Hunter
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Okay, but those are both particular, fairly arbitrary, and likely overly narrow, iterations on a theme; they are not nearly the limits of what can be placed, or would be fitting, within those broader themes.

Is all of Marksmanship… sniping? Is everything to do with a Master Archer / Crossbowmen / Blunderbusser / Carbiner, etc., dependent on standing still for 2.5s at a time? (Though that’s still only around a fifth to sixth of uptime spent immobile, and with considerable bankability most of the time…) Else, the sniping need only be complimentary/synergetic/fitting with whatever else makes a master of ranged weapon technique.

Is all of Munition usage… run-and-gun? Must any and all use of Munitions have simultaneously both limitless range and limitless ability to attack while moving? Should someone able to handle cast times be permitted zero advantage by a Munitions/Survival spec from that skill (be allowed no such skill expression)? Should someone able to know when it’s safe to go in, how to manage personal burst vs. mechanical involvement be permitted zero advantage from the spec for that skill (be allowed no such skill expression)?

Similarly, does Munitions/Survival need to only ever be about hitting your flashing buttons when they flash / hitting your CDs when they refresh, in what would make modern BM look gigabrain by comparison, as per WoD RSV? Should it similarly preclude well-timed use of bankables (things that can be delayed for an additional time with little to no loss, such as multi-charge skills), just because “That’s for MM/BM”? Should it have no significant gameplay-affecting CDs (wherein a special munition shot unlocks follow up actions or special effects, etc.) just because RSV was previously supposed to be as simple as possible?

If those constraints are due only to previous implementations, rather than a need inherent to the spec that may hold those the builds holding those particular resultant slices of gameplay… then there is no need to purposely preclude that room otherwise available for such skill expression.

As such, it’d just come down to what extent those threads/gameplay slices should be allowed to mingle. Would just a few cross-spec references be sufficient —as per MM’s Chimaera Shot, Withering, and Salvo now— or should the spec be allowed a more deliberate and choiceful pursuit of those thematic threads as would more fitting? Should Munitions have zero use for the likes of Deadeye or Deathblow or Rapid Fire (perhaps augmentable to Tracer Fire or Thermite Flurry), beyond just a few random pieces taken only if one happened to be building near enough that area anyways?

To me, the chances of Special Weaponry and (Ranged) Special Technique belonging together seems higher than the chances of them best served by being split apart, but it’s far from certain, and I can certainly imagine other potential triads.

Again for illustrative context, though, here’s how I’d break them up, personally, if I more or less had to follow the existing triad:

  • BM (Beastiness [bleeds to SV], Beast summoning [unique], empowered Beasts [unique], and beast coordination [small bleed to MM, mostly class tree]),
  • MM (sniping [bleeds slightly to SV, but only from stealth], insight/procs/chains [mostly unique], guerrilla [bled from SV], special weaponry [partly via class tree, partially bled from SV]), and
  • SV (improved trap tactics, guerrilla warfare [uniquely allowing for conditional combat restealth, but bleeds to MM slightly], other hand-thrown devices creating synergies and unique opportunities among each other and in regular rotation [unique], and maybe some further utility opportunities based around pre-positioning and moving in and out of melee range [bleed or unique, depending on how you define it; BM mirrors this somewhat, but differently].

…I’m just not certain the existing triad (even without any spec being needlessly forced towards melee, since melee is not a theme, only something to intensify a theme that’d have to still stand on its own without that being forced towards melee) is the best.

*Of those, BM and SV would see some situational advantages from temporarily going melee (whipping out a dummy hatchets or long-knives, a la the handcrossbow on SV), but not usually quite enough to swap outright to melee weapons as their primary (automatically using handcrossbows or throwing axes for ranged attacks).

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the answer to both of these is “no” btw. people that really glamorize old wow (and rsv itself) have very rigid and narrow views of what is "acceptable’ and “unacceptable” class fantasies.

To a lot of people when they ask for and yearn for RSV to come back to WoW they’re expecting something that both scratches their rose-tinted nostalgic itch but also something very new to the game. Any spec added to the game that’s similar to rSV would be immediately written off as it doesn’t remind them of the way they felt at 16 years old.

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Or we happened to enjoy a mobile dot spec that wasn’t reliant on our pets for most of our damage.

When I mentioned the stationary thing with MM, I was referring to it’s current iteration, it’s biggest damage is based on standing still.

I see it as more of Markmanship should be the spec built around guns /shooting, BM should be the mobile pet spec, and survival should be built around the mobile guerilla fighter (traps, poisons etc) like it was.

See that’s the thing, to a lot of us, survival being forced melee just doesn’t mesh well with the hunter’s primarily ranged focus. Why couldn’t it be ranged focus with some melee as opposed to melee focused with some ranged? Why does a spec that is built around using all of its tools, not use the one that gets it it’s biggest advantage, being able to deal damage without having to go toe to toe. Shoot, let’s build it like Rambo, then we could keep the grenades lol

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yeah its 1 spell that works on a charge system mm is still incredibly mobile

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You should try Balance cause it’s as mobile as a ranged DoT spec is going to be.

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I have, I’m not a big fan of the eclipse system, also it’s not very mobile compared to what survival was

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Correct, that is why I said it’s biggest damage spell is based on standing still, rsv didn’t have anything like that, it was fully mobile like bm is but you were the main source of your damage as opposed to your pet

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I decided to make a Survival Hunter from scratch to see how it feels to play.

It plays better than MM and feels better than BM by around level 30; early levels are really focus dry, but you get over this by level 30 somewhat. Not as bursty as MM, not as spammy as BM, a little in the middle. Current SV feels like the right mixture of “Pet Damage vs Hunter Damage”, where 80%+ of your damage comes from your abilities. The AoE is nice, and the bombs are surprisingly fun.

After finally playing it, I’d say it’s better than BM in terms of gameplay (it just feels like I’m hitting harder than BM at an equal level) and much more refined than MM for sure. Sure, I have dead abilities (Arcane Shot, Steady Shot), but I’m fine with this.

Now that I’m leveling an SV Hunter, it’s not a problem at all. I used to think that it should be Ranged SV, or at least a choice - but really? No. It’s fine.

I’ll update later with how it feels at higher levels. But for now, it feels better than MM and BM by leagues. Not that I like playing melee (I love bows), but I like the freedom it gives with Harpoon and how I’m not constrained to standing still with Aimed Shot. It’s sad that this is just the better class in terms of gameplay. I’m not staring at buttons, I’m just free to spam Mongoose and occasionally throw in a couple of Kill Commands. It’s really nice.

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I am about 99% sure there isn’t going to be any more mobile rDPS added to the game. If you’re chasing that dragon you probably will never catch it

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Assuming you’re telling the truth about never playing it before, which you’re probably not, is the fun part of the spec the rotation or the fact that it’s melee?

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I can dream though right? lol I also feel that there is just a lack of ranged physical dps specs in the game and we could use more. A tinkerer / turret type spec could be fun too. For me, it’s just that the current two ranged physical dps don’t scratch that itch quite like rsv used to and I end up not staying subbed as much as I did back when rsv was a thing. I have no doubts that msv could be fun and that people enjoy it, I just personally do not like melee specs so I stick with ranged ones.

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Why does it have to be one?

sure, but sometimes dreams should be tempered by realistic expectations :stuck_out_tongue:

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Never give up, never surrender! =)

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Standing still neither results in our strongest skill (certainly not after the Careful Aim window and without WRG), nor do we spend more than a fifth of our time standing still. We still have among the highest degrees of relative mobility of any ranged spec, second only to never-gonna-get-me-dowwnn-run-n-gun BM.

Traps…
Poisons…

Again, what part of that shouts “(Complete) Mobility!”?

Having both unconstrained range and unconstrainted mobility is not outright anti-synergetic with either (except maybe in that part of the purpose of traps is made redundant by hypermobility and poisons lose their risk-reward if you don’t have pivotal moments of exchange anyways, leaving low-hanging functional and gameplay potential to rot), but neither is it particularly synergetic (especially if you’re not limited to melee-range traps, etc., which… wouldn’t be great either, anyways).

I mean, agreed. That’s why I said as much.

Some food for thought:

If there were advantage to using melee, would anyone purposely hamstring their effective range?

Yet, melee exist in this game. So, we clearly haven’t forgotten that balance is (should be) a thing in the larger view.

Browsing these forums, though, I have to ask: Why then do so many insist that it is heretical for a Hunter to have stronger melee attacks —even if just locked to a multi-charge CD or otherwise infrequently able to make use of that advantage— than ranged?

Small tangent:

Consider the literal physical efficiency of putting an object the size of a large arrow through someone via flexing and unflexing some other object (essentially, compressing and releasing a spring) that can only be operated by one’s torso… vs. just pushing it into the enemy directly?

Even an extremely well made non-mechanized bow is going to waste at least a sixth of the force put in relative to just stabbing directly with that force… and it’s again using just your torso to do so, instead of being able to make use of damn near your whole body (let alone momentum and therefore body-weight).

Now, obviously WoW doesn’t need to stack things so in favor of melee here. Such would make sense only in something with extremely low TTK, wherein the advantage of that extra range would (more than) make up for that realistic loss. But…

If we’re to talk about resourcefulness, that means being able to make use of things that would otherwise have weaknesses, rather than just sticking to a tool that has no relative weakness (be that from being overpowered or just by having no alternative).

We could therefore quite reasonably expect that an “especially resourceful” spec (let alone one built around primal instinct, keen reflexes, and surviving through calculated risk as Survival has been, especially since Legion) would add the option to really go in, and to make room for doing that.

I’ll agree, though, that Survival doesn’t currently accomplish that. “Going in” does not feel deliberate, let alone particularly set up. Instead, the current implementation is relegated far too nearly to a generic Melee.

We don’t feel like we’re surviving through calculated risk (taking the dangerous but feasible clash in order not to lose the battle as a whole) because we lack any particular, let alone unique, agency in mitigating those risks beyond just running away again (ending that “go in” phase early).

  • The closest we get to calculation that might incidentally affect risk… is awareness of Pheromone Bomb coming up (or previously also Volatile Bomb, before that was turned into a mass-DoTer instead of something that capitalizes on mass-DoTing).

And those “Keen Instincts”? A couple generic procs. BM and, especially, MM do that aspect better.

/endrant

Anywho, agreed that SV should have far fewer limitations on its range, so long as there are still significant advantages to “going in” from time to time, beyond just dumping a single melee CD.

Survival is damn fun, imo, but it is simultaneously a disappointing mess.

I’d love to see a fundamental rework such that all Hunter abilities can automatically swap to a melee form, and vice versa, and from there stop pretending that melee is a theme in itself and instead focus Survival around the “rush/frantically-quick-but-precise execution”, “deliberate-but-adaptible-calculation/setup”, and “exchange/branching” between the two.

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I’ll respond to the rest in a bit but was curious if you ever played rsv (no offense intended)? Everything was instant cast like bm is which is why I call it mobile

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That’s not their point. They’re asking you “what about traps and poisons lends to the mobility people are asking for”.

Then they’re saying what’s the pay off if the entire spec gameplay loop is pure mobility with DoTs that keep themselves up that you respond to by smashing buttons on procs? It’s a safe spec with nothing to pay attention to, which is an awful lot like current BM game play wise.

I’ve discussed this before but a lot of the rSV proponents are just chasing an impossible to catch nostalgia rabbit. They want to feel like they did when the game first came out and back then class/spec fantasies were a lot more vague and also rigid. To them, a hunter is ONLY range (despite it never being the case) and they simply cannot fathom that a 20 year old game evolves and changes and fantasies adapt and grow.

To them the concept of “specialization” means nothing. They want 3 different Hunter “specializations” to all be effectively the same thing (mobile, completely safe, range)

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Actually? Both. I enjoy the melee combat on SV far more than I do on Warrior or Paladin. The rotation is simple and smooth, without any major bumps, and it hits hard. I’m level 63 now since I last posted (was 33), and its only improved once I nabbed 2x Kill Command on the core tree.

So, my overall thoughts on SV so far:

  1. It plays really nice as a Melee DPS. I still feel like a Hunter, but not as much as I would on MM. In fact, I feel more like a Hunter on SV than I do on BM, because my Pet is helping me deal damage, not dealing all of it.

  2. The rotation is great because I don’t have 30 popups and random procs on abilities. I never look at my abilities except for a quick glance to see if something like Fury of the Eagle is off cooldown. I don’t need to monitor random charges on Precise Shots, nor do I need to watch the cooldown on Bestial Wrath, and I don’t get popups for Kill Shot either. Because the conditionals are really passive (sometimes I won’t consume a Kill Command charge, which is just about the only proc I’ve really paid attention to), my eyes are on the battlefield.

  3. The harpoon is a ton of fun. I’ve never really had downtime nor had to sit still and charge focus with something like Steady Shot, or fret over something like Barbed Shot. Instead, I hit Kill Command for a chunk of damage, immediately gain a chunk of focus, and I throw out another Mongoose Bite.

  4. Mongoose Bite is actually really cool once you unlock it. Basically, it gains +15% damage each time you use it, up to 5 stacks, before dropping off after the duration expires. You have enough time to get out 4-5 hits of 175% damage Mongoose Bites off, which is absurd.

  5. In every dungeon I’ve run, regardless of level, I have always been Number 1 DPS, excluding in a few instances where I’m focused starved (which was solved later on). On top of this, with a Ferocity pet, I’m sucking up tons of life from my damage output. At some points I just stop working with the tank and push on my own, taking down elite packs solo. It feels busted until around 60, when you enter Dragonflight with the beefy healthpools. Even then, I’m easily soloing packs of 5-10 mobs without issue. Do note: I still received a couple heals from a healer while doing this, and I did have support from other players. I just felt nearly unstoppable until about… 40? 45?

  6. The Pet feels more like a key tool and utility; like an actual companion looking to assist me and work together, not do everything for me while I scream at it to kill. Something BM doesn’t do at all. I feel more like a Beast Master as SV than I do as a BM, which is crazy. I’m actually excited to have a cool Pet again, shame that the exotic ones are locked to BM only.

I think I’m an SV main now. It’s just more fun.

What I’d like to see more of:

It would be really cool if I could use a few of my ranged abilities too. I’d love to throw out Arcane Shot every so often (and not from a Proc). I’d also like to choose the ranged weapon I pull out whenever I use Killshot/proc Sting. If they could implement a ranged weapon as offhand (no stats except its raw damage), that’d be awesome. Maybe make it a minor rotation, to work in line with the Ranger tree. So if you can’t get into melee for whatever reason cough giant fire fields cough, you could have a pity ranged rotation to work off of for a slight DPS decrease. Maybe they could develop it so that each Arcane Shot reduces the cooldown on Explosive Shot… Would be a cool, optional build to work within, and bring back some of that Hunter flair. At that point, I’d never drop SV again.

Like this, for a rework:

  • Ranger: Increases your damage from your shots and stings by 20%/40%. (This is baseline already.) Arcane shot costs 10/20 less focus, and each Arcane Shot Critical Hit restores 5/10 focus. Each time you cast Arcane Shot, reduce the Cooldown of Explosive Shot by 1.5/3 Seconds.

Since you have a chance of casting Arcane Shot every time Kill Command Resets, you’d benefit off of bonus Focus regen on those crits, and you’d get more explosive shots, too. You’d also be more competent at range. I’d love a little change like this, it would make SV perfect for me.

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Yes. I am not asking what it was. I know what it was. I played it, more than any other spec save perhaps Prot War.

But if its themes were supposed to be, as you put it, “Traps and Poisons,” no part of either of those elements necessitate having both complete range and complete mobility.

  • Nor, to go by the other side of that same coin, did any part of those themes need to preclude skill expression involving uptime management as otherwise seen among melee and casters.

Hell, by WoD, it uniquely made both Traps and Poisons nearly *non-*mechanics, in that Traps were now replaced by a hit-on-CD spell that required no pre-positioning and was not capable of any skill expression in itself beyond being hit on CD and not used on something just about to die and Poisons were made automatic to your filler casts. SV did the least actual trapping of any Hunter spec, and less deliberate/separate/distinct poisoning than MoP MM or BM.

If “Traps and Poisons” were what you think SV should be, late RSV’s history is the last place you’d want to look for warrants for that interpretation.

We can argue that SV should be “Traps and Poisons” on the basis of such would be most lucrative and distinct in theme and gameplay if it were to actually play around those things, but history would give the opposite interpretation if thinking of its actual gameplay (actions pressed, decisions made, what forms of skill expression were most rewarded).

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Tangent, but…

Don’t talent across 3 specs to the same effect what you can baseline from the start.

There is no reason for Arcane Shot not to be 30 Focus from the start, matched to Cobra Shot. Nor is there any reason for it to deal so little damage without talents if both BM’s replacement of Arcane Shot (Cobra), MM’s version of Arcane Shot, and SV’s Arcane Shot would all be obliged to buff it to at least a shared point. Instead, simply baseline the extent shared between all three specs.

Just have Cobra Shot directly upgrade and replace it, dealing Nature damage instead of Arcane and taking on Cobra Senses (Kill Command cooldown reduction) from the start.

And let RSV fire off Arcane Shots with its handcrossbow whenever it likes. The difference will simply be that while MM can augment or refresh/unlock nearly all its direct-damage mobile shots via Aimed Shot, out of all those ranged shots SV can only augment its poison and its execute.

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Well, the Ranger talent also increases the damage of your Explosive/Kill/Serpent/Steady shot by the same amount, so I’m more so keeping it aligned with the current implementation of the perk. I don’t want to advocate for a ton of changes, just a few small ones and quality of life.

And overall, I feel like RSV shouldn’t be the primary way to play SV. I feel like it should be an alternate, simplistic rotation for SV when out of range. You’ll take a small DPS loss to play entirely at Range, but otherwise - it should be 100% manageable. So if you’re playing against a super mobile class in PvP, you could ramp up a lot of Arcane/Explosive shots on them if they keep wriggling out of your melee, or if a boss is flooding the area with fire, you can play around it while maintaining pressure. I know there’s Aspect of the Eagle. But I think that’s dumb. Why have a 1.5min cooldown to use melee abilities at a 40y range? Just let us use ranged.

For the handcrossbow, it’s cool, but ultimately I’d like to choose my ranged weapon, too. Which is why I’d like it to be an offhand option that only takes into account the raw damage of the weapon (not the stats, like agility/stam/mastery/crit, etc). Or it can entirely just be used as a vanity slot, and any transmogged item can be shoved in there for no DPS difference. The handcrossbow could still make an appearance if you’re in melee range of a target, but if you’re out of melee, your character should have their melee on their back and their gun/bow/crossbow in their hands.

And with how SV’s current Arcane Shot works, you still shoot off the occasional arrow whenever your Kill Command resets. So the talent would still be greatly beneficial to Melee SV, as it would generate 10 additional focus for free whenever you’re trying to generate focus.

All in all, I want RSV to be a side grade and useful utility for managing your position, not replace the melee aspect. I really like how SV currently plays, but I know it can be better with just a couple small tweaks.