Sure, but with this attitude we can also say MM might turn melee or Beast Mastery can turn tank. Just as valid things that can happen—if we ignore that no current specs will change from their current roles.
Yes that’s my point exactly. You’re asking like putting the rSV you miss and cry about 24/7 woudl be a ton of work on current MM when it would in reality be 2-3 talents.
The difference is RSV carries a lot of merit as a successful spec, especially as we see it being especially successful in WotLK and Cata classic at the same time. On top of that SV got a lot of compromises in the ranged direction over the years. It’s not so far fetched to say one day they might get someone in charge who says “you know, it would be cool if SV got a ranged option like it used to be”. It’s a hell of a lot less far fetched than melee SV was before it happened.
Because we want a more modern RSV. It’s good to have more exploration of ranged weapons; not just cramming it all into one spec.
But it’s not crammed into 1 spec, it’s on BM (you say this spec has ranged weapon fantasy all the time) and MM. Why should it not be distributed on other classes? I feel like you shoudl be asking to make Sub rogue ranged so it’s more spread out.
There’s no difference lol. SV going ranged has just the same amount of chance of BM going tank. The rest of your paragraph isn’t relevant at all.
Gosh, so has Outlaw and Unholy and Enhancement and Retribution. Do you think those will switch to Ranged soon?
You keep arguing how MM is a big mess without a clear identity, and needs to be reworked. Yet, at the same time, you also argue that they should cram even more into that spec, along with multiple other specs as well.
Make up your mind…
No black arrow, no explosive shot procs, no serpent spread, still have to cast aimed shot
thats not ranged survival and you know it
what are you trying to say here?
I’m arguing it because MM players say it. There are people on this forum that don’t want it to be a patient sniper and want it to focus on things like volley or rapid fire, and those that want the exact opposite.
Are you ignoring what I say on purpose?
I can’t believe a ranged DPS has to cast things 
MM players argue that they shouldn’t merge that spec with elements of what old SV was. They don’t want MM to become old SV, or for the two of them to share the same space.
Also, in this topic, you specifically argue that they should put old SV into MM. None of the abilities you mentioned there have anything to do with the old SV fantasy. So no, I’m not ignoring what you’ve said…
You are indeed right that there are MM players who prefer a more agile version of MM, one that doesn’t require the planted sniper/turret elements. And there are those who prefer the patient sniper style. Still, none of that has any angle towards the idea of merging MM with the old SV fantasy.
you’re talking like theyre a monolith lol. other MM players do want old rSV on the spec. do you think their opinion means less than yours?
serpent spread and and dot based lock and load dont have anything to do with the old SV fantasy? sounds like that’s exactly the old SV fantasy. unless you’re changing it again
And yet it does. current MM is a mess of an identity and the player base itself can’t even decide what it wants the spec to be
and yet we see posts bi-daily to make MM fully mobile
Most[MM players] on here who do comment on the subject say otherwise.
Did I say as much?
No. Just because some MMs want the patient sniper fantasy, while others want the more mobile version with more focus on things like rapid fire and volley, that doesn’t mean their arguments include the fantasy of old SV. That’s primarily a thing in your mind.
Both Rapid Fire and Volley are things that do adhere to the core fantasy of MM as a skilled ranged weapon user, one who focuses on aim and/or quick reload/draw, etc. etc. etc.
Again, though, nothing to do with old SV, and being a munitions expert who focuses on enhancing/augmenting their ammo/arrows + traps.
“fully mobile” does not by default equate to “old SV”. You can easily make MM fully mobile without doing anything with it to resemble old SV.
I don’t think “most” is right here. I think you see what you want to and dismiss otherwise.
You sure implied it by making such a sweeping statement, yes.
It means the MM fantasies and gameplay themes are in conflict and confuse the playerbase. They want it to be a patient sniper but also a rapid fire run and gun sharpshooter.
Right, and once again you ignore the argument that blizzard clearly does not want casters to be able to move while doing their rotation lol
You guys should stop feeding trolls in the forums especially those who specifically target survival post, you know who those individuals are. Just write a ticket or so regarding their behavior in hope that Blizz takes action by removing them from forum engagement. I’m shocked they keep allowing the most popular troll still post after years of doing this.
Old sv coming back won’t make you 16 again it’s time to move on
That depends entirely on how the RSV fantasy hit to/for them. For many, RSV was simply the run-and-gun spec wherein you apply your DoTs automatically, hit your flashing buttons when they flash, and hit your CDs when they refresh.
For others, RSV is armaments, but for them MM’s current Explosive Shot likely offers far more skill expression and a better thematic fit than old RSV did (an equivalent to Devouring Plague), especially as a base to build upon.
Every spec leverages multiple thematic and gameplay threads. RSV was no exception to that.
Was it the guerrilla warfare spec? Well, yes and no, since RSV (post-Vanilla) had Sniper Training but MM was the one with skills synergetic to that and which claimed that fantasy as its core.
Was it the traps? Well, yes and no, since it could buff its traps, but no unique traps in most expansions.
Poisons? Well, yes and no, since it could had a floor of DoT damage but had the least deliberate DoT gameplay of any spec, since it applied its DoT automatically or on-CD anyways.
Attrition? I guess… but only in the sense that it just lacked deliberate damage dynamics or meaningful burst, but that’s a gaping hole and/or balancing nightmare more so than an identity.
Personal defense? Apart from BM (or even just… killing things faster) just doing a better job of any of that anyways outside of rare PvP scenarios, sure, I guess?
CC? If not for BM having Intimidation… that’s actually a pretty solid one.
Anywho, your read on RSV being equivalent to a Munitions spec —rather than anything to do with guerrilla warfare, or trapping, or dismantling opponents by exposing and capitalizing on their weaknesses, etc.— is a pretty good interpretation for the modern class given the Class Tree now, but it’s far from the whole of the RSV fantasy, let alone the only interpretation one would make of it.
Personally, I just want the three spec cores to be as distinct from each other as possible such that they don’t lock off thematic ground that’d otherwise be synergetic with the other specs (and therefore would be better off in the class tree).
The difficulty there is simply that Hunter’s class thematic core is extremely holistic, and would probably be better off in some manner of talent-wheel rather than just a Class Tree and Spec Tree.
It’s still doable, but we may have to decide what things we want MM to have access to beyond 'I pew pew good, but only with physical, frost, and nature damage, and sometimes it’s a long pew. (Physical, frost, and nature damage is for BM and Physical, fire, and nature damage is just for SV. Obviously.)’ but don’t necessarily need one or the other among BM or SV to have access to.
Should that be munitions, since that’s pretty out of the way for BM? In that case, it’s worth considering whether munitions, in turn, can coexist with the Sniper/Shots-Mastery threads. Should that be poisons? What?
Believe whatever you want. Go back and read posts in older topics where this was brought up. You will find that typically, any MM player who isn’t invested in topic of discussion said that they do not want MM to become what old SV was, or for elements of old SV to take up a lot of the space within MM.
I didn’t imply anything, you simply read it and made your own interpretation. We were talking about topics, past or present, where players who prefer the MM fantasy have commented on the subject, and again, what I said above.
Sure. Still, both those are fantasies pertaining to an overarching approach to weapon mastery(in this case, a ranged weapon). Comments usually focus on how “you don’t have to stand still to hit a bullseye”, and other similar comments.
I’ve addressed that argument of yours plenty of times. It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat it, it’s nothing but your own bias, your own interpretation and assumptions of past design choices.
Speaking more generally, sure. Again though, this is more focused on past replies and comments made within these discussions.
My argument is that pre-Legion SV had a primary focus on augmentations and enhancing effects to ammunition and traps. The main fantasy of SV was that of a munitions expert and trapper.
Did it have tertiary elements with a focus on other parts of the toolkit as well? Yes, ofc. I’ve never said otherwise. They certainly kept with the idea that it had a somewhat increased focus on utility and defensives(more so in the earlier days, arguably where that was in fact the primary focus of the category, rather than a focus on a primary offensive playstyle like we see with more recent Core Specializations), for a while.
Yes and no. Ofc the specs should have identities of their own. Gameplay that stands out from that of the others.
Does that necessitate the removal of one of the specs that did focus on ranged combat as a primary? No. It required them to actually think of what the difference between a sharpshooter/sniper vs a munitions expert/trapper can be, within the scope of WoW that is.
It’s not hard to make a version of RSV which focuses on enhancements to ammo and traps, while maintaining MM’s primary fantasy as a sharpshooter/sniper as its own option.
Also, does any of that mean that you have to “lock” certain elements to be exclusive to any particular spec? No. Not at all. It just means that one spec can include a select few elements of a certain fantasy, but if you actually want to focus more deeply on those elements, the other spec might be the better option, and vice versa. That, in a way, is class fantasy, combined with the concept of spec fantasy and identity.
They had much of that in the old game, albeit done a bit differenly from how it would look like today. In the early game, regardless of which category you went into as a hunter, you had a unified core of abilities which you utilizied as your primary combat mode, whenever possible. Regardless of which category you went into, your core, and your primary style of combat did not change to any meaningful degree.
Right back at you. You see what you want.
Well you seem to be ignoring what other people say, so I don’t know how else to interpret it.
And what’s your opinion then, if mine is just me repeating my bias? I’m sure yours is above that? You’ve still never answered my question besides saying “well it’s not my place to say my own opinion or guess”.
I agree with all but this part, though I suspect this is coming down to semantics.
For any part to exist only within a particular spec tree (say, Bestial Wrath, or broader senses of empowering one’s pet significantly and discretely/deliberately), then, yes, it has to be spec-exclusive.
Given that, it’s usually best not to have two separate specs that would want access to, say, a majority of each other’s stuff; it’d be better instead to simply have the one larger spec from/within which one can take as much as they like of either thematic thread.
Accordingly, my question was just whether the use of specialized ranged weapons (“Munitions”) ought to be largely exclusive from the specialized use of ranged weaponry (Marksmanship), as, yes, would be required by having a separate Munitions spec.
To me, the two seem pretty synergetic together, such that unless Marksmanship’s talent tree (compared to now) were busied also with other thematic threads bleeding over from outside of (but synergetic to) pure ranged weapon techniques (and magical damage, I guess, since we’ve got Arcane Shot and Chimaera Shot ‘muddying’ that theme), it seems like each thread would be better served by sharing a tree with the other, even if that means Aimed Shot itself being a choice node.
I just want to put it out there I hate the current Explosive Shot compared to what it was for RSV, but at least it’s not a skill shot anymore. That was annoying.
I think I see what you are saying here, the issue I foresee is that Marksman is very stationary while RSV was very mobile (much like BM is), also it seems odd to me that we would affect 2/3 of the specs to accommodate 1 (turning survival into melee and cannibalizing part of MM’s tree to accommodate the old RSV playstyle). That and RSV did play with traps, magical damage, poisons etc, something a marksman is not typically associated with.