A good proportion of the few people who play SV like it for the rotation. Having a fun rotation isn’t dependent on being melee. So a good amount of the people who play it could still have fun with it as a ranged spec.
Honeymoon phase. You aren’t even max level, lmao.
Just like that last person who came here and said they’re over the moon with SV and it’s now their exclusive main… only to permanently switch back to BM a few weeks later.
Always funny to see people insist SV is fun for being melee while also saying it should be more ranged.
At what percentage of ranged combat does it suddenly become a bad thing? 70%? 90%?
Why should SV be deprived of the ranged capability that comes with the baseline class?
Does it make sense to pick a spec and then lose one the core, defining strength of the class?
Specs should build on the class foundation, not take away from it.
I know an iteration of SV that could pick and choose its ranged weapon
Yeah you want a lot of weird things, just like your MM suggestion thread.
These aren’t contradictory, though, in the ways most ask for it to “be more ranged”.
Most are just asking for the removal of arbitrary additional constraints, not for ranged attacks to actually be competitive for a greater portion of GCDs in typical/optimal combat. There’s just no reason why Serpent Sting and Kill Shot should shoot just fine out of a crossbow while Steady Shot and Arcane Shot somehow would not.
A Hunter specialization shouldn’t be capable of less than the base class. That’s not to say the spec shouldn’t outgrow those base parts, such that one is still pushed towards this or that; it just shouldn’t literally be nerfed for adding on a specialization.
There’s a difference, though, between an actual arbitrary restriction (handcrossbows take only poison ammo, killer ammo… and rockets… never regular or magical ammo, somehow) and a spec just offering too good of alternatives for something ‘base’ to still be relevant later on.
There isn’t a difference with Bepples’s argument though. He believes since Hunter starts with a bow at level 1 that means it’s the “true” definition of the class. Which is 1) arbitrary 2) nonsensical 3) silly.
Ad hominen fallacy. I’m not saying it’s part of the rotation or core to the class. I’m saying it’s an optional way to dish out damage when it isn’t safe to engage your target in melee. It should be a DPS loss to pop ranged attacks overall, but can be filler when you can’t directly approach a boss.
I never said that, I’ve said that I want it to be ranged instead of melee but with tools to get out of melee like we’ve always had. I like the idea of hunter being able to do both melee and ranged, but I want the focus of the class to be ranged and not melee.
This contradicts itself, you say that you respond to procs and then say that there is nothing to pay attention to. Having procs enhances the loop imo as you have your normal rotation but change it up as procs occur which keeps it more fresh imo.
I’m perfectly fine with MM being less mobile, it fits the marksmanship idea and safe has nothing to do with it, I just prefer ranged to melee.
Right, which isn’t the case, and hasn’t been in the case in nearly a decade at this point. I don’t think it’s going to change.
You got me there. The only thing you pay attention to is glowing buttons. Which is exactly like BM. So I really doubt they’d have two identical gameplay loops
Great, so you have two specs on Hunter to look into, 3 specs on Warlock and 3 specs on Mage, one spec on druid, and one spec on priest, and two specs on Evoker, and one on Shaman. There aren’t a shortage of ranged
Wod bm and mm didn’t have access to serpent sting at all, and rsv gained the most benefit from using traps in combat. The removing of the trap arming time was class wide so I’m not sure I get the skill expression thing.
Black Arrow made rotational use of the traps themselves redundant as anything but a negligible dps gain when otherwise running low on Focus. And prior, they shared CDs. Using Black Arrow, the SV-unique thing, meant not using traps.
Being unable to fight with a ranged weapon is less capable than the base class.
We still had utility traps which were relevant, especially since they gave a guaranteed proc of Lock and Load. Explosive Trap also remained relevant since it was an AoE.
Shields aren’t a core deining strength of those classes. They’re a part of melee combat, just like switching between swords and daggers. They don’t represent a major combat capability of the baseline class, as ranged weapons do for Hunters.
Those classes have had archetypes that don’t use shields going back to the very beginning, e.g. shamans with fist weapons and paladins with big hammers. Hunters without ranged weapons isn’t an archetype that goes back to WoW’s beginnings. Every iteration of every spec before Legion used one.
This is because Hunters were defined around ranged weapons.
So not only are the class icons arbitrary but apparently now the 1-10 loadouts are, too.
Do you actually believe that classes should have a foundational identity at all? Because it doesn’t see mlike it.
For the record, the approach changed with Legion.
Before Legion, they based it around ranged weapons. This isn’t debatable. The design of the class plus all the written material surrounded it emphasised the role of ranged weapons.
After Legion they tried to at least make the written descriptions more ambiguous and open to melee combat. However the class is still designed as if ranged weapons are central and melee is the deviant offshoot. Your vision of the class is one where melee and ranged are equally as important and pets are the central part. If that were the case:
Lone Wolf wouldn’t exist
The baseline toolkit wouldn’t be so completely ranged
SV wouldn’t need a sidearm crossbow
We would have both melee and ranged weapons at the same time from level 1
And, as much as you think it doesn’t matter, we wouldn’t have the ranged weapon as the literal icon of the class. It would be pet-related instead.
The way SV is integrated to the class now looks like they came to a ranged weapon class and tinkered and compromised enough to shoehorn in a melee weapon spec. Which is, of course, exactly what happened.
I wouldn’t be suggesting changes if that were already the case.
I don’t think SV should be primarily melee. I merely pointed out to you that wanting arbitrary restrictions on what shots one can shoot with a crossbow to be lifted does not “contradict” liking melee gameplay.
I’m fine with that threshold, so long as there’s utility value within use of melee skills commensurate to their being limited to melee range.
You know, like how, when balanced, melee remain competitive even when dealing only the same damage as ranged?
Otherwise, you’ve got the “resourceful” / “tactical” / “guerrilla” spec… wasting a resource otherwise capable of tactical interest that’s almost perfectly situated to involve choiceful ‘shock-and-awe’ engagement and disengagement vs. ‘stealthy poke’ soft-engagement and capitalization — something that sounds pretty damn “Survival” to me.
Now, if Survival —however it may be fleshed out— at least had enough else going on, I’d be fine with leaving that easy win to rot. I’d also be fine with it being something you talent into, like any other choiceful tool. That is fine. It should be one of multiple choices, where some builds take on more skill ceiling than others and through different considerations/optimizations than others.
I just want some damned tactics and resourcefulness available in the spec, where that resourcefulness does not simply mean “Everything goes in the square hole, because you have dA BeSt resources (in place of any significant decision-making)”.
According to whom? They start with shields, do be your definition it’s defining. Sword and shield combat is very different than 2-hander combat fantasy wise, so that’s a core aspect that’s different at level 10.
So the dead zone was an important aspect of “wow’s beginnings” w/r/t Hunters. Should that come back? Or this one of your arbitrary lines that don’t matter when it comes to historical precdent
They do have a foundational identity? You then specialize on top of that.
Do you know that there are levels 11-70? You’re starting to sound like Jackals were only hyper specific level brackets matter.
And after Legion (8 years ago) the class became both melee and ranged. “This isn’t debatable”
But you decide that 8 years of precedent “doesnt matter” for no real reason at all. Maybe it’s your creepy beef with the Celestalon, maybe it’s your bitter world view, maybe it’s your unreasonable behavior, who knows.
Right, but what happens when that’s not the case? I doubt he’ll be like “well that’s it then!”. Odds are he’ll continue to freak out daily on the internet.
He brings up historical precedence all the time but is very pick-and-choosy what’s important based on “old wow”. (Not to mention, he could just play classic and play his ideal spec but chooses to complain about retail)
Then play Marksmanship? BM? Balance Druid? Fire, Frost, Arcane Mage? Evoker? Why try to make a fun melee class Ranged?
The only thing I’ll concede on is that I think SV could use optional ranged abilities that aren’t part of your rotation nor required for DPS. Let me drag a bow into the offhand slot to replace my hand crossbow, and let me use it to fire Arcane/Steady/Explosive/Serpent/Kill Shot at my target when I’m out of range and don’t have a gap closer off CD. I’d love for it to have minor functionality to give me more casts of Explosive Shot, too. Like Arcane Crits reduce the cooldown of explosive shot, and the crits generate focus. And of course, Arcane should cost less focus baseline. Boom, perfect for me.
Why quantify it? Some ranged is good for any melee class. As long as it doesn’t overtake the melee in terms of damage, and it’s a DPS loss, I’d say it’s fine to have “some ranged” in a melee build. Other MMOs straight up give you the option to switch from ranged weapons to melee, it’d be nice if WoW allowed just a little bit of nuance for SV to play between them both, but prefer melee. That’s what I’d advocate for.
On the same note, I think BM should also have choice nodes for melee, too.
Terrible opnion.
Hunters were defined off of DnD 2e Rangers. Which meant melee and ranged options with hints of magic. The devs just didn’t understand balancing back then, which is why Warrior was the strongest class, Casters were always OoM, and Paladins could only heal. That’s why Hunter was ranged focus. It wasn’t because Hunter was meant to be purely ranged with melee as an escape/last resort. It was because they didn’t know how to balance damage numbers at all, saw that players preferred sticking to ranged, and changed out the Lacerate (IIRC) to Wyvern Sting.
MoP ruined Hunters by saying they couldn’t have melees, and you’re still crying that they added melees back. Toughen up cupcake.
Skill issue. Play MM and larp with explosive shot as a RSV Hunter.
Don’t agree with him, he’s malding. Melee SV is fine, and SV should play in melee range 100% for optimal damage. IMHO it should be always be 100% melee damage, but if melee isn’t an option due to mechanics, 70% ranged is a fair trade off to keep your average DPS high throughout a fight. That’s my idea for SV. Just let me pop a bow in the spare offhand slot for the aesthetic/using it for killshot, and when I’m running away from death swirlies, let me cast Arcane/Explosive with it in some kind of mini-rotation for safety dance purposes.
Mixed agree. If you’re speccing into something like Ret Pally, it’d make sense to take a 2h over a 1h/shield. But removing the shield entirely seems off, it would be nice to keep it in the pocket for emergency shield situations.
100% true. The foundation of a Hunter is a rugged survivalist who uses pets, stings, shots, melee, and the occasional explosive or trap to nail down their enemies. Which is why we start off with Wing Clip at level 2, a melee ability to slow enemies down.
IMHO Hunters need to have their main hand/off hand weapons return. Main hand is your spec weapon (Bow, Gun, Crossbow, or 2h). Off hand is your off spec (If Ranged in MH: 2h, and if 2h in MH: Ranged). Off hand gives no stats except the raw damage number for Damage Calculations. Give every class Raptor Strike baseline and have Mongoose Bite be your first talent in SV to replace it. Boom, every class suddenly feels cohesive, and Hunter has their melees again.
He’s free to like everything other than RSV more in Retail than Classic and therefore want RSV in Classic. I can imagine plenty of reasons by which that’d be a wholly honest and rationale desire, and even were that not the case, my failure to imagine such a reason wouldn’t give me a right to stifle his want on principle.
Just as we’re free to give our opinion on what parts of that would be fun to us, would actually survive the transition into a more rotationally complex game, etc.
Call him out for being a jerk if/when that’s the case, not for wanting what he wants, however unreasonable it may seem to you.
