If you believe this, thats okey, im sure the Devs who are in charge of the class design believe the same.
The outcome of their work is evident… there is nothing more to discuss about it
The same conclusion is rendered of any spec if taken in the same view. Basically all are “unified” only by a color, an arbitrary damage type without any inherent mechanic, or a single gimmick.
Which is fine, so long as the whole still feels distinct in its flows and considerations.
Then why are you even discussing anything on these forums or related to improvements possible for WoW? Any and every change possible comes through the devs. If you think the dev’s involvement automatically irredeemably corrupts the product, well…
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right, which is my point. it’s dishonest at best for people who don’t play SV or know anything about SV to make egregious claims like “sv has no identity” and “mm has a solid identity”
Bulletproof argument.
Boring to you. Hunters were actually fine with it because to most Hunter mains it was good to have 3 different takes on ranged weapon combat in the only class that used them.
The way we can determine the majority opinion is representation. Oh, look, ranged SV was very popular while melee SV is very unpopular. That was easy.
People played it as recently as last season.
Still pretending MM has as chronic an unpopularty problem as SV, are we?
MM does not need to be OP. It just needs to have something that makes it worth bringing, not a long list of things it’s worse at than BM.
In a season with this many >10 trash mob bloodlust pulls, it can’t have capped AoE and a damage penalty for bloodlusting when BM has neither of those.
Both of them had good representation in plenty of seasons in the past. It’s not an unsolveable problem. It’s not nearly as hard as making a melee Hunter spec appealing v.s. 2 ranged specs so I’m not interested in this concern-trolling deflection.
It doesn’t get a bloodlust penalty or capped AoE like MM.
When SV can fight at range without losing DPS then it’s a fully capable ranged weapon user.
There’s nothing else to address here because I think even you know how bad of an argument this is and you’re just typing it to be contrarian at this point.
Oh, were you under the impression I ever conceded this point or you successfully countered it? Wrong on both counts.
Hunters were established as a ranged weapon class, and even in the era where they shoehorn a melee spec onto it they still design it as if ranged weapons are the central part and the melee spec is the afterthought.
We’ve had a grand total of half a season where MM has really low representation…
It would hold up a hell of a lot better than melee SV.
If you want to dilute the meaning of “unwanted” to meaninglessness, sure. Just substitute “unwanted” with “unwanted by most people” to make things make more sense. You’ll find yourself doing it a lot becase I sure as hell won’t change my vocabulary and disclaim every single use of a word because it doesn’t fit your specific neurotic definition.
Ranged SV had low burst damage and was rather squishy. They could also add more complexity and even immobility as downsides if they really needed to.
Like I said: I don’t think you’re being sincere with this line of argument so it’s not worth addressing.
Melee SV player calling other people’s class design preferences “niche” and “bizarre” 
The preferences of the few outweighing the preferences of the many is more or less the crux of the melee SV argument.
In fact melee SV fans tend to get fanatically defensive. You could relate.
There’s that word again. Not even reading past it. Try again.
Ranged weapons are a critical thematic and capability difference. They are not arbitrary.
Are you listening to yourself? One is ranged while the other isn’t.
Yeah, like when ranged SV took Spirit Bond from BM. Oh, actually that was melee SV.
As it turns out you’re exaggerating the problem and making SV melee doesn’t automatically fix it.
The difference here is RSV was a capable and popular spec. The others are all niche “alternate builds”.
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This is a massive reach.
Survival had Trap Mastery which buffed all its traps and Lock and Load which tied a DPS incentive into its traps (including CC traps for PvP situations). Even with Black Arrow, Trap Mastery kept Explosive Trap far more relevant to SV than it was to the other specs.
It’s really not representative to use Ruby Sanctum 25 heroic data. The raid hasn’t even been open for 2 weeks and it’s a notable step up in difficulty for WotLK classic. Very few on each server have actually killed the boss.
For comparison, in the past 2 weeks there have been 470k SV parses in ICC 25 heroic.
I’m also not sure where you get that retail number from because the highest I can get for SV is 28k and that’s with Heroic Amirdrassil for the last 2 weeks of 10.2.
Good post but you do know it’s “tuning” and not “tunning”, right?
???
You think a Mage actually auto-attacks???
That’s literally the difference between an Intellect weapon/stat-stick and an Agility ranged weapon/stat-stick. The latter gets used for additional passive damage via auto-attacks.
And that mere passive periodic damage is not enough to somehow make a Hunter a Mage with a bow, just as using a spear is not enough to make SV a Warrior.
For one, raiding is the sole point of available PvE challenge in Classic.
Here on retail, it isn’t. So the total number of PvE parses for challenging is not going to just be from Heroic (or even combined Heroic + Mythic) raids as it would be in WotLK. M+ is also going to be a factor.
Every spec had access to, and frequently took, Trap Mastery until the removal of talent trees in favor of talent grids… at which point they still had even access to those features. Look at any recommended tree for MM even now.
You didn’t waste Freezing/Ice trap just to trigger your ppm-capped LnL procs a little sooner. You simply got the LnL as a bonus when you would have used it anyways in the same occasions by which anyone else would have.
The SV unique trap usage… was just forgoing whatever shared Black Arrow’s CD unless technical issues made Black Arrow strictly redundant/inferior anyways.
Expose weakness missing… Hunter’s mark is getting there though! HM needs to have above 80 percent health limit removed (naturally HMs shouldn’t stack either).
Also, posting in an epic argument thread.
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It’s not pointless. They design abilities based around how our characters are supposed to work in the world of Azeroth. I’m saying that it doesn’t work or make sense for a Hunter to stand right on top of their own bomb. We can keep repeating ourselves and this can keep going over your head.
I’m saying Survival should specialize in traps and that right now it’s a far departure from what a Hunter is.
And again, we understand we design how our classes use abilities and talents based on how they’re supposed to work on Azeroth. Hunters have no resistance to explosions. I can’t make it any simpler than this.
“BUT FIGHTING DRAGONS ISN’T TOTALLY REALISTIC EITH-”
I mean you can go down whatever path you want to go down at this point, reflection of your own intelligence and not mine.
i like how your argument most of the time boils down to no true scotsman
still ignoring it’s unpopular are we? still ignoring it’s never been as popular as BM in contemporary gameplay when its not blisteringly OP?
ignoring raid? it does great damage st, yet…
oh so, exactly what SV needs, yet somehow that doesn’t count to you lol. get real
you can’t even come up with an idea, you just stick your fingers in your ears and say no I dont want to talk about this 
why are you acting like this is hard? make it do more damage, that’s really very, very easy
sounds like the spec’s design is bad which is what I’ve been telling you for years and you only recently started agreeing
seems like a needlessly restrictive way to interpret things just so you can be right. it uses ranged weapons = capable ranged weapon user.
go ahead and give me an actual example of the melee spec being an afterthought. or is this one of your “bepples feels it so it must be true” points?
and so the cope begins
you think? well lets just take a look at another ranged dot spec with cast times
oof…
says the guy who routinely freaks out about “true” hunter mains lol
so they add a squishy spec to a tanky class, an immobile caster to a class that has BM, and add a low burst spec to a class with BM?
you really think people would play that?
are you the arbiter of sincerity? is it sincere arguing with someone who celebrates when a spec is nerfed because he personally doesn’t like it?
your whole argument is that the other ranged DPS don’t “count” to you because they don’t use a specific weapon type in the game. how is that not niche lol
the irony of saying this in reply to someone curious why people aren’t being “fanatically defensive” is super funny personally
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what exactly is the capability difference? an auto attack every 3 seconds? something that’s easily replaceable by a DoT?
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(2016-07-19): No longer available to Survival.
(2020-10-13):
- Now learned at level 27 (was 42). Now available to Survival again.
… (2022-10-25): Now a row 4 class talent (was a level 27 ability).
We all did then didn’t, and did again all own it. Now, it is sold back to us as a Talent!
This kind of thing sucks… It is not clever or did I miss how synergy is attained when this Talent is combined with others, and when used with the right abilities and proper timing can turn me into a veritable God of War and Destruction, laying waste to all things within range of my bow as I rejoice in the carnage?
You tell me…
The more of a class’s value you siphon towards/into non-stackable raidbuffs, the more class balance can be satisfied with there being at most one of that class per raid.
Making HM a flat 5% damage buff against the target regardless of their health also makes it even less thematically interesting.
you refuse to read anything that anyone else is saying. your standards are hypocritical, nonsensical, and it’s extremely odd to hold this standard for a single ability in the game. it’s not a realistic game at all. applying realism is ridiculous.
You keep avoiding my question. Why is it bad for a Hunter to throw a bomb at their target in melee, but it’s not bad for a Warrior to spin around in circles? why isn’t it bad for a mage to cast Blizzard on top of their allies?
i’m guessing once again you don’t see the irony in this? is it an intelligent thing to apply realism to one ability in a high fantasy video game?
I have and you just repeat yourself. You’ve asked the same question that’s been answered and simplified for you several times now. At this point I don’t care if you’re actually being this dense or just pretending.
But once more we’ve shifted off of the merits of the idea to instead nitpick my subjective feelings about class identity and theme, which is again what the issue is and can’t make it any clearer.
your response was “we can accept friendly fire isn’t a thing” but somehow you don’t apply that to WFB for no real reason.
multiple people have tried to explain to you the “merits” of DPS traps are lacking. traps are awkward to use and hold no benefit over normal abilities. they don’t work on some enemies. they get hung up on z axis geometries.
again I ask why should anyone listen to your opinion about the identity or theme when you don’t know what current SV is about, how it plays, or you hold weirdly specific niche ideas of realism for a single ability in the game
Wow that’s deep. Anyway, buff HM.
The reason was explained though and you ignored it and kept asking it again. I’ll explain it a fourth time, but afterwards we’ll have to begrudgingly accept you may have a learning disability and move on.
Hunters used to carry ammo, that was removed for the sake of convenience. We know we’re still shooting arrows, but we don’t carry them anymore in-game.
We don’t have friendly fire because it would be impossible to ever form groups beyond 5-players for content given the size of most AoE and Melee stacking. Most mmorpg are this way.
This isn’t that.
A Mage casting Pyroblast right in front of a mob should also explode the mage, realistically. It doesn’t, we accept that. And a mage would cast spells in melee to defend themselves realistically still.
For a Hunter that’s supposed to be skilled and tactful to literally stand on top of an explosive, that they have no actual resistance to lore-wise… is just stupid and breaks the class fantasy pretty hard core.
Almost as stupid as needing this explained a fourth time.
but this quite literally isn’t what happens at all. that’s why I question why anyone should take what you’re saying seriously. WFB is thrown at the target from at minimum 8 yards away. the explosion is not a radial explosion but a conal explosion. this is why I don’t think you read what anybody says or why I don’t think anyone should take you seriously because you fundamentally misunderstand the spec. is it on purpose? who knows.
here’s a drawing to help you conceptualize what you are describing what is actually happening in game
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You do realize that unless it’s like a super duper weak explosive, 8 yards is literally nothing right? Like a grenade is around 15 meters~ for instance. 8 yards is 7.3 meters… So basically you’re standing right in the impact of your own explosive.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how explosives work.
this is not real life, this is world of warcraft. real life explosions do not apply to this game at all. you are trying to apply real world logic to a game where you fight building sized robots that hit you with car sized hammers.
this is the type of person that doesn’t like msv