It hurts their allies right next to them? Spinning around in place in combat is also not a good idea, since we’re focus on hyper realism.
Trying to say “this ability does not make sense” in a high fantasy game is such an absurd criticism to focus on when every spec does unrealistic things because it’s a fantasy game lol
yes? why not just make it ranged at that point. there’s no benefit to shoehorning in a hybrid that has to go back and forth
I disagree. I am fairly certain almost every player actually familiar with the spec would also disagree.
Even if some may prefer a different take or direction for the spec’s identity, the identity is there just as assuredly as for MM and BM. Such is clear to anyone unbiased and not ignorant of the spec.
It hurts their damage; every but if energy exerted instead to spin oneself in circles is energy not put into swinging one’s sword through enemies. How often does anyone actually spin-to-win in HEMA?
It’s a hell of a lot less sensible than using a shaped-charge explosive. Hell, even Explosive Shot, with it’s radial striking area, would be a hell of a lot less sensible by rationale of friendly fire than a shaped charge explosive. That Bladestorm would be “fine” while the latter is somehow not marks a clear bias.
???
You could say ‘it hurts their allies right next to them’ to any ability being used in AoE. I’m saying that the throwing a bomb right where you’re standing as a Hunter seems very anti-common sense since we’re not known to be tanky at all. We can spin this around again and again or move on.
We already discussed this. Because there are many fights that dish out abilities based on if you are categorized as Melee or Ranged as you pointed out originally. But it maintains 100% uptime as a Melee DPS 100% of the time which is a unique advantage. Thematically it makes more sense as well.
Yes, it’s the same identity as Legion, but you removed traps. So less of a Hunter now. Keep bragging about being an inferior version of an inferior Hunter I guess.
Answered already my dude.
yes this is quite literally my point, the realism standard can’t exclusively apply to WFB because that’s nonsense.
so…MM is less of a hunter? they dont use traps. BM is less of a hunter? they don’t specialize in traps lol
Well it can actually. We accept that when we play ‘friendly fire’ isn’t a thing. Most mmorpg are set up like that where friendly fire just isn’t a thing. We’re not talking about that, we’re discussing how an actual skill would basically kill you each time you used it. It’s really out of place for someone that’s supposed to be good at… not killing themselves.
MM uses Freezing trap. BM uses it as well. They don’t specialize in traps, but it’s a core part of the utility for the class. I’m saying Survival should specialize in traps, but really it makes no sense to stand in melee and set traps. It also doesn’t make sense to stand in melee and drop a bomb when realistically that would also get you killed.
I’m basically repeating myself as you drone on about the same thing again. Ready to move on?
right but this is pointless because that’s not how the game works at all lol. you can’t complain something about “out of place” and not apply that same standard to every other ability, because that’s absurd and reductive
yes, this is accurate. you’re saying “Sv isn’t a hunter because they don’t specialize in traps” but not applying that to the other specs.
does it make sense to fight a giant dragon that would “realistically” kill you immediately? why are you focusing on realism for 1 ability of 1 spec in a game?
so to summary your problem with survival is that
Survival used to be a specialist in traps indeed, with talents that were specifically designed to enhace those traps (talents that were exclusive of survival), and it was part of the thematic of the specc up till Legion.
And while traps are still in the class, and some talents also enhace said traps, it is not a key part of survival anymore (since Legion).
The “funny” part is that the current version of survival is a total failure, and has been a total failure for several expansion now, to be fair many people loved the Legion version of it, but after legion the love its gone.
Representation of survival in all aspects of the game has been super low, and its gets lower and lower each day… (except for that 1 time when a totally OP tierset existed)
Devs barely touch the spec, and it makes sense, cuz the number of players is so low, that it could be considered a waste of time trying to put work on something that almost noone plays.
If this continues there will be more people playing Survival in WotLK classic or SoD than in Retail… and that would be a shame. Imagine a 20+ yo version of the spec being more popular than its current itteration.
This is not new tho, At the end of BFA Threads asking for a rework for Survival were all over the place, and the same happened at the end of Shadowlands, and the same is happening at the end of Dragonflight…
And when we get to the PTR for The War Within, this agony will continue.
And yes, All class forums have post asking for their class/spec to be better… But if you think SV problems are not different than the problems any other spec is facing, then there is 0 chances youll ever understand whats affecting the specc.
I guess we will see if the Devs correct the mistakes that were made… or if we will have yet another expansion with a spec that’s virtually dead
why are you lying? we just got changes this last patch lol
everything you’re complaining about in the post right now applies to the mostly the entire class lol
We got buffed… a damage buff, a quite huge one…
Do you think that fix the spec??
We get a damage buff on the last part of the expansion, almost the last Patch, and for you thats enough? that means the Devs are paying attention to the spec for you?
This is exactly what i said, literally “the Dev barely touch the spec”, they throw a Damage buff at it once in a while when the numbers are so low that noone can ignore them anymore…
The whole class is in shambles (BM seems fine… but reality is taht is the flavor of the month) but SV has been dead since BFA.
And buffing the damage wont fix it
i mean, yes it will. people play damage specs that do high damage. thats all there is to it lol
This is probably the most disingenuous answer you have give, and clearly shows that you have 0 interest on the class, the spec, or even in actually contributing anything useful to the forum.
People dont only play 1 spec of Mage, and there is clearly 1 that does more damage, but All spec of Mage are played roughly even.
All Rogue specs are played, despite only one of them being top damage.
MM Damage isnt that bad for high end players, yet its representation is ridiculuosly low
How many DPS classes we have on this game, does people only play the class that does more damage and thats it?
Almost as if there were other factors beside damage that make people play a Class/Spec
No, Damage is not all that there is… adding damage is a bandaid to deeper problems the spec has, and the class in general is trying to fix.
But its clear that you have no intentionality to help whatsoever
…Why would having less travel time, and therefore having more reliable traps, make it stupid to use traps?
Traps aren’t typically used rotationally for dps simply because most players disliked using frequent ground-placed AoEs with travel times (e.g., whereby the tank may easily leave mobs out of the way during their travel time) rotationally.
They were not removed because somehow binding and damaging someone with a steel trap from 5 yards away (from which range they cannot possibly dodge it) makes less sense than from 40 yards away (from which range they can dodge it).
Survival probably should not specialize in traps, for the simple fact that frequent rotational trapping has almost always been disliked (a large part of why Immolation Trap was replaced by Black Arrow in the first place, as BA shared a CD with damaging traps), but again, that warrant makes no sense. Lobbing devices at long-since-aware enemies from a distance is not somehow more sensible than using them from close enough that they can’t be dodged.
It’s literally a ranged ability, the same as Explosive Shot. If you want it to auto-convert into a Dragonfang Slash or whatnot instead if used from melee range, sure, but you already noted why WFB can be used from range:
Apart from perhaps MM WoD, Hunters have historically had advantaged relative uptime (the ability to maintain a greater portion of their damage even while moving for a large portion of the total fight length) over contemporaries in their role, whether that be via MM spending five-sixths of its time mobile (far above average for most ranged) or BM spending its literal entire time mobile and now without even any real chance of one’s pet getting stuck outside of its melee range thanks to 50-yard dash-strikes on Kill Command, or now SV relative to less ‘hybrid’ melee.
Traps have never been a “key” part of any PvE-viable Survival, unless a ranged target-requiring attack that cannot be pre-placed is somehow a “trap” just for sharing a cooldown with all offensive traps (i.e., making it so you no longer trap rotationally / for damage)…
As of WotLK, Survival had less of a rotational place for traps than BM or MM, for the simple fact that Black Arrow was the superior option until high target counts (with only Explosive Trap being preferable thereafter even then) and they shared a CD.
You realize that would mean… since MoP. It played fine in MoP. Just as it still plays fine now.
Which should tell you pretty damn quickly that if the spec that was hugely outperforming Survival saw barely more representation that Survival, and was absolutely dwarfed in representation by BM despite outperforming BM, that there’s no Survival-unique issue there.
Except almost no one who actually plays the spec would agree that there are significant issues beyond tuning (or undercompensation for increased risk relative to MM and especially BM), talent pathing (with near identical complaints to those held for BM and MM) and the occasional inconsistency or bug. That, too, should tell you something.
Ohh no, traps were highly used in PVE by many hunters, Specially in WotLK and Cata.
Glyph of Explosive trap allows it to critically hit, making it superior to Black arrow even on single target situations, and you can check the current logs on classic WotLK, with the early adition of Trap Launcher, Explosive Trap is used more often than Black Arrow by high end players.
Snake trap was used when a mechanic Damage based on the number of target, like the fireball on Blood Council, or the green Ooze in Putricide.
Back in TBC youll use snake trap to bait fear mechanics taht would target players otherwise.
In Cata snake trap was buffed increasing its popularity in both PVE and PVP.
Actually, using your traps properly (and positioning them properly before the introduction of Trap Launcher) was what made the difference between a good hunter and a great hunter
Which stopped being even a potential thing the moment all DoTs were made capable of crits.
Which was for utility purposes, not just rotational damage, just as per current trap usage (not that it’d matter since non-player units were removed from counting towards stacks).
And none of those things were unique to Survival. Snake Trap wasn’t a Survival talent. You’d still use Snake Trap for the damage-splits even with the original number of snakes (no Trap Mastery, which BM and MM could take anyways if they wanted to).
SV still had the least rotational place for traps of any spec for as long as BA shared CDs with traps and neither of the things you’ve mentioned would be remotely relevant today because they were long, long since purged from the entire game.
And this happened post WotLK, yet traps were still fundamental in Cata
The key part is “Today”… today traps for SV hunter are irrelevant beside utility.
You no longer place a frost trap to trigger a Lock and Load proc… thats too old, WotLK times.
Traps were relevant for SV hunters, and good hunters used them as DPS and as Utility all times, and if you didnt play WotLK or Cata back then, you can go and watch logs of the current Classic iterations, take the top 5% SV hunters and see how much of their DPS Explosive traps represent. (imagine there was a thing called Trap weaving back in the day)
And do the same when Classic Cata somes out (if anyone plays it) and youll see its relevance…
But the things is… that was the OLD SV… nothing of that SV exist now, that SV is not longer part of the game, or can be replicated inside game anymore.
So ofc is not relevant today, cuz that play style doesnt exist today… Devs make it crystal clear that they didnt want traps to be part of the core of SV, and they removed them from the playstyle long time ago (probably around Legion)
About adding Damage to fix the spec… as if Damage was the only thing wrong with the spec… if you cant see thats not the case, i cant help you there.
Its Saddens me tho that MM is on the condition that currently is despite having great damage (if you know how to play it) and a solid identity… and my biggest wish for all those MM players who love and enjoy their Spec, my biggest wish is that MM would never be in the position SV is now.
I really hope Devs Fix MM issues and brings it back
To all three specs.
All three could take Trap Mastery for as long as it existed, and even that supplied only 30% more periodic damage to said traps; the majority was baseline, again, across all three specs.
I know. I did it. I’ve played Hunter every expansion. You claimed it was something uniquely key to Survival. It wasn’t. The only unique trap interaction on Survival was to use Black Arrow instead of Immolation Trap (or Explosive up until a particular target count, dependent on relative tuning)— uniquely the least trap usage.
Is the identity clear to those who actually play it? Yes.
Is the identity cohesive to those who actually play it? Yes.
Is the identity at least as unique as any other to those who actually play it? Yes.
Is tuning, when Survival is underpowered, the largest concern to those who actually play it? Yes.
Unless you want to call a stigma or other community perception disconnected from the actual state of a given spec a problem in itself, or otherwise think that homogeneity is preferable to having any specs like Affliction, Frost, Subtlety, Feral, Arcane, Brewmaster, Preservation, Marksmanship, etc., are inherently problematic just because they lag in popularity… yes, balance is going to be the largest issue.
Survival could perhaps use a tiny bit more utility over BM and MM (I’d certainly prefer that over just more tuning, so long as it’s both decently unique and versatile) but the bulk of that balance comes down to, yes, tuning.
While All 3 specs got access to “Trap Mastery”, and im gonna assume we are talking about Cata, only Survival got access to “Resourcefulness”, wich reduced the cooldown of all traps, making them actually viable for rotational use… but not only that … Mastery was introduced in Cata, and masterty of SV was “Essence of the viper” and its effect was “increase all magical damage you deal by 8%, each point of mastery increases the damage by an additional 1%” And Guess what kind of Damage Explosive trap did back then, or Snake trap, or even Serpent sting (thats not a trap obviously).
An Explosive trap from a SV Hunter would do twice much damage than one from BM or MM back then… and we arent even talking about Itemization…
But again, thats the pass… that SV only exist on the classic era servers, and i dont know the numbers, but it wouldnt surprise me if there is more people playing those SV than Retail SV…
Homogenization is never the answer, and i hope it will never be.
Utility is someting SV needs, we agree, and its damage could be better, sure 100%.
If damage is the main issue we are just wasting time… Just increase MB damage by X% and problem solved… ohh but you need AOE… just make it hit infinite targets and problem solved.
Or just “increase x% damage to all hunter damage and abilities and pet damage and abilities” and there you have it, genious Devs saving the day
…Skills don’t become viable or inviable for “use on CD”, let alone, “use as filler” based on its CD. An action’s priorities don’t change based on CD except where they would previously or newly come into conflict with higher priority CDs due to sync or use in particular windows.
You’re not going to be able to get a fair comparison between Retail and Classic, mate; the numbers and types of players drawn to them are night and day.
I assure you I have intentions to help the spec.
Tell me what utility or heavy changes assassination got this last patch to propel it in population. Let’s see…utility is the same…defensives are the same…gameplay loop is the same…identity is the same…
could it be that they simply got tuned better? 
this is almost 14 years ago. why are we trying to claim that spec design almost a decade and a half ago is at all relevant to a spec now??
old SV can quite literally be replicated on MM by adding 2-4 passive talent nodes. serpent spread and a dot that procs a reset on a hard hitting ability.
it has the exact same utility as BM and MM. if you add extra utility to SV, the ranged counterparts absolutely freak out and feel neglected.
it’s actually so funny to me you and others make the claim that SV has “no identity” and MM has a “strong identity”.
please tell me what identity MM is. Is it just “generic archer?” because I see aimed shots, I see fast shots, I see different munitions, I see shadow magic, I see wind magic, I see explosives…I see a frankenstein of concepts.
I see people SV has no identity in the same breath as them making egregious claims about SV’s “key abilities” that hasn’t applied to the spec in nearly ten years.
Apparently if you compare
https:// www-warcraftlogs-com/zone/statistics/35 (replaced . with - to post it)
with
https:// classic-warcraftlogs-com/zone/statistics/1020 (replaced . with - to post it)
There is a huge difference in favor of number of parses for Classic on the SV department. (471,751 For SV classic on ICC vs 852 for SV Retail on Amirdrassil)
Also SV is the 6th best performing spec, not the 3rd, and is the 21 on retail (out of 26)
OFC the comparision arent fair, totally different players, totally different raids, totally different difficulties, Mythic difficulty is worlds appart from the Old Heroic of classic.
But still, im glad i went back to check the logs.
Again, if Fixing this would only be about damage, “increase X% across the board” would fix it… and worrying about balance its unnecessary, cuz you can do the same the next patch and let people cry about the flavor of the month.
Is not only Damage, is not only Tunning.
But hey, we will see, we got a buff the last patch maybe those 852 parses can reach 4000 or more next week, who knows (that was sarcasm btw)