I really enjoy Survival

Classes Hunter
324

Instead of confronting why your arguments magically don’t apply to other aspects of the game, you deflect and try to pretend survival is in a vacuum. Should I start accusing you of moving goal posts / deflecting when you avoid answering questions?

Go on

Show me literally one serious example.

You’re unreasonable about it because you go about it in an abrasive and hostile way. You’re unreasonable about it because you go in to unrelated threads to throw the same tantrum you’ve been throwing for 10 years.

You’re unreasonable about it because you do something that you yourself admitted is bad for your mental health, but you continue to do it.

They remade a spec because they felt MM and rSV had overlapping design spaces and felt it was redundant.

According to you, SV is only unpopular because it was remade melee. Affli was never remade, so why is it unpopular? Maybe people feel like there are too many ranged DoT specs?

Since when? For how long?

So kind of like MM only being played when it’s stupidly more OP than BM? Or is this “Deflecting” because your logic applies to something you like?

I asked you to show me the numbers you’re talking about and you wrote an entire paragraph avoiding my question just so you can smugly laugh to yourself that MM has 1% more players.

No I will not acknowledge how SV fights with ranged weapons. Specializations are not a thing.

Can Frost Mages fight with full effectiveness with Fire magic?

General concept of DPS must be melee then.

Or the melee weapon of the Mage icon. Or Priest?

What show?

325

You constantly deflect to specs which, even with trouble in recent tiers, still generally hold up way better than Survival historically has.

Survival is a special case of general dislike from the community.

“It’s just a prank bro”

In fact in every thread I bring it up it’s relevant.

I’m reasonable because I’m correct.

They felt incorrectly.

Maybe it has a bad damage profile and tuning for the current PvE environment.

SV sure as hell doesn’t.

DF Season 1

SL Season 2

SL Season 1

All BFA seasons

So since Legion (where raider IO doesn’t divide data by spec, but considering Affliction’s overpoweredness in that expansion I cant imagine it would look good for SV), the only times SV had more players than Affliction are the previous two DF seasons, and the mad bombardier era.

In raiding it looks more skewed in Affliction’s favour, so no need to even go there.

MM is a lot less dependent on being OP than SV is.

You know full well that the numbers are from warcraftlogs and raiderio.

Can SV fight with full effectiveness with a ranged weapon at >5 yards?

Why do you think it’s a sword?

Staves are relevant for magic users.

Why do you think those icons are staves?

SV went melee when the game was already firmly in its “decline” stage. It’s a languishing spec in a languishing game.

1 Like
326

So you can’t do it? Compared to you who actively celebrates when SV is nerfed…hmm. What a well adjusted individual.

You constantly cry that people are deflecting when they use your own logic against you because your entire being depends on things being treated as a vacuum.

See what I mean?

See what I mean?

See what I mean?

I mean to you, specs are only unpopular because the game wide community doesn’t agree with the spec fantasy and means it needs reworked immediately.

So from 9.2 to 10.0, and from 10.1 to 10.2? Why are you pretending like that’s not a significant amount of time lol

Is it? The player population absolutely plummeted when it’s not broken compared to BM. SV has a consistent playerbase, whereas MM entirely depends on it being broken.

9.0 there were around 21k MM parses and it absolute nose dived to SV levels this tier. It sounds to me like people just aren’t interested in the ranged weapon fantasy at all. I’m sure Blizzard can see that too :stuck_out_tongue: Makes me think that they won’t introduce a 4th DPS spec to a pure DPS class introducing a ranged weapon spec when the player base clearly doesn’t like that fantasy.

Can Arms fight with full effectiveness with a shield? Can Frost fight at full effectiveness with Fire Magic? What are you defining as full effectiveness?

I just told you. Can you not read?

How? They don’t need them for spells.

Do you really think SV being reworked had any impact on the total population of the game? Are you that delusional?

327

Well you trash talk ranged players approximately 100% of the time in TSL, but I guess you’ll just write it off as a joke every time soooooo

It’s not my logic. It’s your stunted understanding of my logic.

Trying to equate SV’s horrific community standing since becoming melee with any other spec is delusional. That’s what makes it deflection.

I can’t help being so correct all of the time.

Does SV have tuning and damage profile issues currently?

Because it isn’t. It could be with a few more seasons, but as it stands its a few seasons where SV was particularly strong and Affliction was particularly weak.

It plummeted when the spec became bad and lost an important selling point to BM i.e. 2 minute cooldown burst. On top of that for most of progression the spec was outright bugged to do significantly worse performance.

SV has a tiny niche of hyper-obsessed fanatics. I know you’re all used to preferential treatment but that doesn’t equate to healthy class design.

You really are incapable of understanding the difference between a long term trend and a short-term deviation, aren’t you?

Can SV equip a ranged weapon, go 40 yards out, and do 100% of its damage potential?

I think you evaded the question.

Although I did assume even you’re not deluded enough to think that’s why the icon is a sword. Maybe that’s a bad assumption?

Magic users always use staves to augment their magic in RPGs. What’s the big deal? People recognise the staves as representing magic damage.

Why do you think they use staves as the icons?

No, but I think it means SV is a languishing spec in a languishing game.

328

You mean the very clearly jokes? When someone complains about traffic in real life and I say “sounds like a ranged player”?

Like I said if you find me a serious complaint I’ll be happy to eat my words. On the other hand, you also celebrate mSV nerfs here, so I feel like you don’t really care about this at all.

Why is it in your twisted perception that specs are only validly unpopular if the community doesn’t like the fantasy? If any other spec is unpopular for more than 1 tier in a row you just say “well it’s a tuning problem.”

You can see any number of articles about SV’s main problem being a melee spec without utility, but I feel like you don’t really care about it and just want to cry at your own personal slighted feelings.

Delusional

Does MM? It does plenty of great damage and really doesn’t have a bad damage profile compared to last tier.

That’s almost 2 solid years. TWW isn’t coming out till the late summer, so going on two and a half years. If this persist into 11.0 I’m sure you will just move the goalposts down.

So MM is only picked when it’s OP compared to BM? Sounds like people don’t like the ranged weapon fantasy. Surely if people were attracted to the fantasy itself it wouldn’t lose 80% of its population due to BM getting a cooldown.

Go ahead and list some preferential treatment.

Well since 9.0 was almost 3 and a half years ago, I think you need to decide what you consider long term and short term lol. If MM has lost players each tier since 9.0 it seems like people just prefer BM

Can Arms equip a shield and do 100% of its damage potential? Can a Frost Mage do 100% of its damage potential using Fire spells?

I can’t believe specs have different things and use different equipment/spells :open_mouth: it’s almost like they…specialize.

“The Bow is the class icon because Ranged Weapon is the core class fantasy.”
“The sword is the DPS icon because for no real reason!”

You are silly.

They don’t in this game. Why are you bringing up other games?

Couldn’t you say the same thing about Combat to Outlaw? Maybe adding a pirate spec killed the game. Or maybe adding Demon Hunters killed the game. It has to be for one of those delusional reasons and not because MMOs as a whole just aren’t as popular as their glory days.

1 Like
329

“It’s just a prank bro”"

Because SV is a lot more consistently unpopular than any of the rest of them, and even Blizzard thinks the reason is because of its standing in the Hunter playerbase.

Why do you think SV is so unpopular?

It does, actually. It lacks single target, its AoE is capped, it has lower mobility, it has a damage penalty for fighting with a pet, and now even its historical strength of 2 minute cooldown burst is diminished due to Call of the Wild’s buffs. There are far too many downsides to switching to MM with no clear upside.

And SV has been unpopular for 7 years.

It’s picked when there’s at least some upside v.s. BM. That’s clear from previous season data. It was a widely picked spec as recently as DF Season 1, and it certainly wasn’t overpowered then.

Getting given someone else’s spec.

What are you talking about? MM also saw a lot of M+ play throughout SL and into DF Season 1.

Do you actually, sincerely believe that mage specs using a different school of magic is equivalent to SV using a melee weapon instead of a ranged weapon or is this another bit?

What do you think the reason is for using a sword as the DPS icon and a shield as the tank icon?

It does in this game throughout the lore, and in game in the form of stats. In fact the only reason staves aren’t part of spell animations is due to the technical difficulty of implementing it; Blizzard has mentioned it before.

I didn’t ever actualy say making SV melee killed the game; this is just your bad reading comprehension in action again.

1 Like
330

So when I say ranged DPS causes traffic IRL that’s a problem and a bias but when you actively celebrate SV getting nerf that’s not a bias?

do you have a source for this? because if it’s the source I’m thinking of they say in that same article they don’t care about spec popularity at all, so this whole argument is pointless.

it’s got more mobility than every non-BM ranged spec and comparable damage. So I guess I’m confused why people would ever play MM unless…it’s much more broken than BM. Which you have a problem with design wise…right?

So you will just move the goal posts, got it.

It had a 3rd of the player base of BM. Is that considered widely picked to you? It was in the bottom 10 of all specs. That doesn’t seem to widely picked to me.

So nothing real, just your imagined personal slight to you? Delusional.

How MM population has been trending downwards?

I mean according to you, the core class is whatever they get 1-10 and that specializations should be able to fully use that core fantasy at full effectiveness. Or is this one of your arguments that only exists in a vacuum and only applies to 1 class out of 13?

Clearly because melee DPS is the true DPS and ranged is a deviant, like you said.

Go ahead and source this

Then maybe you should explain yourself better because if you say “well the game population declined when SV was made melee” that sure sounds like you’re trying to tie the two together.

3 Likes
331

10 years later and he’s still making circular arguments that are full of hypocritical points. I wouldn’t waste your time with him.

2 Likes
332

Only problem is there isn’t a thread on these forums where he spews it. I mean he even takes threads completely unrelated and ruin them by starting inflammed discussions about RSV and anything even semi-related.

It’s so bad I’ve simply stopped reading any thread he’s posted in, which is most. Because you know the thread will be just garbage. So sad that Blizzard lets one person ruin it for so many. These forums are here to voice opinions and discuss the game/Hunter sure… but when is enough enough? If he kept to topic you could at least just avoid all SV related threads but alas…

333

I am biased against melee SV. I don’t pretend I’m not.

Yes they believe it doesn’t matter because admitting it does matter means admitting they got it wrong.

Exactly the same as when they claimed subscription count doesn’t matter. They dismiss metrics that show they’re doing poorly.

It’s fine if it has lower mobility. It’s not fine if it loses out on every single point to BM.

And what was SV at that time?

Well it’s not personal, but it is a slight to everyone who played ranged SV. How’s that delusional? They took our spec and told us to play something else. We didn’t agree to it. So it was a slight.

It was also “trending downwards” when it was abandoned in BFA. Then it wasn’t.

If you start with a ranged weapon and are fully capable with it, you shouldn’t lose that with any of the specs, yes.

Using different schools of magic is not the same as no longer being a ranged weapon user.

What’s the real reason?

It’s a staple RPG trope including in the Warcraft universe. What are you on about?

Just a reminder that this is the comment that you interpreted as me claiming SV going melee made the game decline:

I’m not here to coach your bad reading comprehension.

Actually 10 years ago SV was a still a fun and widely enjoyed spec. Something melee SV will never know.

That’s the point :slight_smile:

2 Likes
334

so why should anyone take what you’re saying seriously?

What do you mean “get it wrong”? People have fun playing it, so it seems like they didn’t get anything wrong.

But it would have to do significantly more damage than BM for it to be picked more at this point. BM has full mobility, has all the same utility MM does, and actually now has a cooldown.

So the solutions are to make MM very strong, which is not something you think is good, or to make BM really weak, which seems just as bad.

Why would people play MM over BM?

Less than MM, which was also less than BM. MM had a fraction of BM’s player base. Is that widely picked to you?

I don’t agree to SV not being the strongest spec in the entire game, so clearly that’s a personal slight to me too, right? If your twisted logic means “this spec existing is preferential treatment and a personal slight to me” after all.

Do you have any real examples of preferential treatment or just your ego driven delusions?

And then it was lol. It’s been trending down for quite some time. Maybe people just don’t like archer fantasies?

So using this example, warriors start with a 1 hander and shield and are fully capable with it 1-10, then both DPS specs lose this in favor of other weapon types. Do you think Arms and Fury shoudl be fully capable with a shield or does this example suddenly stop making sense out of a vacuum?

So using Frost magic to DPS 1-10 and it being part of the core class kit is not the case?

Clearly because melee DPS is the true DPS and ranged is a deviant, like you said.

Jaiana frequently uses spells without her staff. What are you on about?

This is why people dont’ take you seriously, because you’re a broken record that likes derailing threads :slight_smile:
Maybe if you keep doing that Blizzard will say “you know what, this obnoxious basket case was right all along! we need a spec in the game to make sure the bitter grudge-holding trolls can feel good”

1 Like
335

can u 2 plz keep it to 1 thred???

336

I have good reason to be biased, and being biased doesn’t automatically make someone incorrect.

Because a hell of a lot more people enjoyed it when it was ranged. Generally when we have something in a game that’s widely enjoyed, then a bunch of effort is spent reworking it, and now hardly anyone enjoys it, most people consider that a failure. Only in bizarro melee SV brain does it constitute a success.

It’s only natural for the recipient of preferential treatment to defend that preferential treatment.

They could fix the Lone Wolf situation so MM wasn’t taking a huge survivability hit (+ DPS hit for bloodlust) that BM doesn’t have to take.

They could make MM have at least some part of the damage profile that’s notably better than BM. It’s not a binary more damage/less damage situation.

In the times when MM has seen a lot of play it’s usually because it has compelling 2 minute CD burst. That should still be the case.

Wow, seems like MM really is a more popular spec than SV, crazy

The problem isn’t melee SV existing. The problem is losing ranged SV for melee SV to exist.

But I know you knew that before you posted.

It was fine until DF Season 2.

If MM is trending down, where does that leave SV?

Literally did not read the rest of it beyond this point because we’ve already been over the fact that it’s not an equivalent situation.

Yes. That is what I said. It’s not an equivalent situation to losing the ability to be a fully capable ranged weapon user. That was easy.

If you’re not going to be sincere why bother typing?

Here’s a hint: there’s a difference in purpose of a class icon and a role icon.

The staff helps.

This isn’t a serious conversation. Next!

You’re still here responding.

337

No you don’t and yes it does lol. Your bias means you’re incapable of having a good faith discussion, as apparent by the last 8 years

And now more people enjoy BM, so introducing rSV would not do much. Unless you really think rSV would really pull people away from BM.

I’m still waiting for an example of preferential treatment besides “this spec exists”.

I really don’t think MM having fortitude would help its player count at all compared to BM lol

“Make MM do a lot more damage than BM, it’s okay for this spec”

I know you said “some part of the damage profile” but like the options are single target or AoE with how the game works lol. For MM to be popular it would have to go against one of your main game design gripes

MM depending on BM not having a cooldown is not good design

So ask for a 4th spec to be added instead of filling up every thread with this garbage? I feel like you don’t actually believe this, which is why you actively celebrate mSV getting nerfed lol

Stable as always :slight_smile:

It’s an equivalent situation, it just proves you wrong and you don’t like it.

Hunter: “This class uses a bow 1-10 and has ranged abilities in its core kit. Losing access to this is a deviancy!”

Warrior: This class uses a shield 1-10 and has shield abilities in its core kit. Losing access to this is not a deviancy. "

Losing the ability to be fully capable with frost mage when you don’t choose the frost specialization is actually a pretty equivalent comparison to losing access to ranged weapons when you choose the melee specialization.

Again, you don’t like that your argument doesn’t exist in a vacuum and it makes you upset, so you keep changing argument consistency

Right, class icons matter to you and role icons don’t, for arbitrary reasons

No it doesn’t lol. Not in the game of WoW

Is anything serious with you?

If you don’t want people to respond to you, don’t post in a public forum

4 Likes
338

No, that isn’t how it works. If my favourite colour is blue that doesn’t make me wrong when I say the sky is blue.

You can arrive at an incorrect conclusion due to bias, but being biased doesn’t make the conclusion incorrect.

I think it would at the very least pull more people than melee SV, just like it used to.

It would also allow for more expression of ranged weapon archetypes which the game is lacking. It sure as hell isn’t lacking melee.

I already told you and it’s obvious: you got given someone else’s spec.

It’s one downside in a long list of downsides.

Consider this: I like MM, yet I haven’t played it this season. The main reason is because when I consider playing it there’s a list of downsides with very little benefit. I have lower survivability and mobility right out of the gate, plus lower damage to the bosses. What’s worse is this season is particularly heavy on the large 10+ mob trash pulls requiring bloodlust. MM is target capped, and takes an enormous AoE dps penalty to bloodlust.

There’s a difference between “doing more damage” and “doing so much more damage than every other spec in the game it’s a required pick for any m+ group”, you know.

What, specs having different focuses in their damage profiles is bad game design?

Even MM at its low point is more than SV lol

Maybe, but they would never add a 4th spec to a pure DPS class.

Stable at rock bottom lmao

It is not :slight_smile:

Ignored the rest again.

Speccing SV is speccing out of being a fully capable ranged weapon user. Not comparable.

Role icons are representing something a lot more broad than a class icon.

What do you think the DPS icon should be?

Before we continue debating whether the RPG staple of mages and wizards using staves applies to Warcraft: why do you think the Mage icon is a staff?

You must be confused again. What you said was “This is why people dont’ take you seriously, because you’re a broken record that likes derailing threads”. You’re the one unhappy with my continued responses.

2 Likes
339

That’s great, but that’s not what’s happening lol.

Your favorite color is blue and you show up in every thread about every color and say “Blue is the best color. The new purple shade is bad and people who like it are bad. Bring back blue.” When people tell you they like purple you say “that doesnt matter, because I like blue. If you dont like Blue, you are wrong.”

I guess we’ll never know. :slight_smile:

It’s lacking even more wand specs. If your concern was weapon type representation, I think you should be asking for wand specs, but something tells me you really don’t care about that.

So no real examples?

Does that mean 2023 shadow priests received preferential treatment of 2022 shadow priests? Does the 10.2 assassination players have preferential treatment over 10.1 assassination players?

Sure sucks for you. Maybe one day theyll make MM extremely broken compared to BM so people will play it.

Remember when I told you that MM needs some attention and you said “no, it’s fine” :slight_smile:

this is what MM would need over BM

No? But MM depending on BM having no cooldown at all is not good design

MM has SV numbers and you’re too delusional to admit people don’t like ranged weapon fantasies

Well, whenever I say “they would never do XYZ” you say “they just need a change of leadership” so you know, maybe start asking for a 4th spec instead of demanding a spec is removed from the game with the same 8 year old tantrum.

Doesn’t matter to anyone but you :slight_smile:

Yes it is. Reminder: things don’t exist in a vacuum.

Speccing Frost is speccing out of being a fully capable fire magic user. Completely comparable.

I’m fine with the sword because I don’t apply arbitrary weight to stylistic decisions to try and fit my argument

Couldn’t tell you and it doesn’t matter? Why is mage’s a staff and warlocks a hand? if magic classes in wow should be represented by their magical foci, why isn’t it consistent?

I’m perfectly content with your continued responses, it’s funny seeing what sort of deranged nonsense comes out of your keyboard when you say such things as

“Class icons have core identity weight”
“Core identity is 1-10 but only applies to hunter”
“SV needs to be 30% stronger than the other specs to be chosen and this is bad. The same applies to MM but this doesn’t matter”

2 Likes
340

This analogy would work if blue, despite being a widely enjoyed colour, were replaced by the niche purple and is no longer accessible.

Maybe they should make a wand spec. I don’t care because I’m not a mage, but if they could implement such a thing without removing an existing spec I’d be all for it.

That is a real example. It’s the only time a spec has been totally reworked to chase an entirely different audience. In every other major rework they had first in mind the people currently playing the spec.

You should read Xelnath’s game design blog. He talks about the process for reworking Warlocks in MoP. They seriously considered things like Demonology being a tank spec. But they didn’t go with that because they had Warlock players first in mind every step of the way and they realised their rework wouldn’t succeed if they gave the middle finger to the existing Warlock playerbase.

They went on to create what’s still often considered to be the best iteration of that class. It figures that Xelnath got fired shortly after MoP and they prompty botched several classes including Warlock and Hunter in Legion.

I don’t need it to be extremely powerful. I need it to not be so much worse than BM at most keys that it’s nerfing the group by playing it.

It doesn’t need a total rework. Most of its current issues can be fixed by tuning, and some design tweaks for Lone Wolf in particular.

It just needs more than one update per season.

It’s not what MM has needed in the past. Only SV has needed that.

It doesn’t need BM to have no cooldown. It just needs to have the stronger 2 minute burst of the two.

If people didn’t like ranged weapon fantasies SV would not be so widely avoided after becoming melee.

4th spec is even less likely than SV becoming ranged again. In fact I’d rate it less likely than MM or SV being outright deleted and Hunter becoming a two-spec class. This is because they’ve gone on record saying that they think classes should have started off with 2 specs instead of 3. To be fair if I remember correctly it was Talentlesstalon that said that.

It matters to people who played SV long before you did and would like to see SV amount to something more than the perpetual pariah of class design.

I guess the only way to tell if it’s comparable is if Frost has a similar level of widespread playerbase abandonment and avoidance because Mages don’t see it as a fully capable specialisation of their class foundation. Oh look, it doesn’t. That’s settled.

I’m fine with the sword too because it’s an icon for a role and they need some way to represent the broad concept of “damage”.

Class icons represent class themes. They’re not picked at random.

MM was never that strong in the post-Legion era.

1 Like
341

You’re the one who brought up the weird color analogy. Do you deny going into every barely related thread to cry about how Blue was removed and how anyone who likes purple is a bad person with bad opinions?

Maybe it’ll be the mid range, mobile DoT spec of your dreams.

Well, except WoD Demo to Legion Demo. Or Legion Demo to BfA demo. Or shadow priest moving from vampire psyhic magic to old god void magic to a mixture of both. Or Combat Rogue being changed to pirate.

I’m sure you’ll now say “no that’s not what I meant by rework, I meant rework in a way that it can only apply in a vacuum”

Considered this by boomers who live in a constant state of yearning yet blinding nostalgia.

In today’s WoW climate it needs to be significantly better than BM to picked on top of being better than other ranged DPS with lusts. In a world where mage is always good and now MM has to directly compete with Evoker, it has a lot going against it.

Yes I agree. Should probably have more than one actual update per expansion besides moving talents back and forth

Does the past matter or does right now matter? Why would the past matter to MM’s performance right now?

Right, it needs to have better DPS than BM lol

People don’t like ranged weapon fantasies or MM would be somewhere near BM instead of SV numbers. Remember, you say SV’s current numbers mean people don’t like the fantasy. That should apply to MM as well.

And yet I wager you’ll still be here crying in every thread that they need to do the impossible and rework a spec even though they said they won’t be doing that

So again, it doesn’t matter to anyone but you (bitter gamers who can’t let go of the past and constantly chase an impossible to recapture feeling of being a teenager again)

No it’s not lol. The comparison directly applies and guess what, if it sound stupid for Mage it sounds stupid for Hunter.

Nobody says they’re picked at random, I’m saying you’re assigning an incredibly amount of weight behind the decision. You could assign just as much weight as the fact that Hunter’s class color is a light green or that Hunter has 6 letters in it.

It was very broken in Nathira with the double dipping of Night Fae

342

They really really can’t. The both of them are the plague of the hunter forums. God forbid people can discuss the game without these two starting their silly word feuds. It’s actually insane and are probably the major reason the hunter forums are relatively speaking dead.

1 Like
343

yeah I can’t believe people discuss things on a discussion forum :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like