I really enjoy Survival

Classes Hunter
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You rely on deflection a lot but you’re really bad at it.

There is no difference in capability for a Restoration druid between the class spending 100% of the time in Tree Form v.s. only some time in that form.

There was a time where they did spend 100% of the time in Tree Form, then it was changed so Tree Form was a cooldown. The class still had the same capabilities before and after. It’s entirely a cosmetic difference: they felt there should be at least one druid spec where you can still see the character. It was in the expansion that added transmog, after all.

Using a ranged weapon v.s. using a melee weapon is not the same from a capability standpoint. One is a fully functional DPS at 40 yards, the other isn’t.

As for the other examples:

  • The mage one makes no sense. The usage of the staff as the icon is a convenient spec-agnostic way of representing magic damage. Magic users throughout RPG universes use staves to help focus and channel magic.

  • You can do 100% of your damage in melee as Elemental because that’s hows ranged DPS work. They could involve the melee weapon in Elemental’s damage priority, but of course that could result in ELemental no longer being a fully-functional ranged DPS.

Restoration still frequently shapeshifts. It’s an important part of that spec.

If it stayed in Tree Form 100% of the time that would represent no difference in capability to the current model. It’s entirely cosmetic.

MM doesn’t need to become an absolutely required pick for people to switch over.

Why is the one class with 3 melee specs usually the least played class of all?

All I’ve seen is “remake Legion MM”.

They don’t fit MM.

Usually there are a lot more people playing MM. You’re fixating on one tier instead of looking at the broader trend.

Even now, MM representation is notably increasing and that’s just a result of fixing the WRG bug.

It was patch 9.0 when MM was very OP in Castle Nathria.

If I focus on one patch like Doolb, I could declare that this means people don’t like pet specs and will play the Lone Wolf spec given the chance.

Do you think that MM is on average as unpopular as SV, taking into account all patches since BFA?

305

So when mm is way more op than the other 2 specs its fine but when sv does it you make a big song and dance lol

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Using your own logic isn’t deflection lol. If you don’t like your own argument, I feel like that probably says more about you.

This whole argument is you believing the class icon of a bow means the class should revolve around ranged weapons, but you don’t apply that same logic to every other class in the game. That’s not consistent at all.

But not this game. So the Mage icon is a spec agnostic conceptual representation but the Hunter icon is a concrete guideline?

Did you know the DPS icon in game is a Sword? :thinking: Do you think this means all DPS should be using swords?

Not to mention, as I’m sure you know, SV still uses ranged weapons so your entire argument is just pointless.

But the icon isn’t a tree, it’s a bear paw. You can’t heal 100% as Bear.

SV frequently uses ranged weapons with Quick Shot, Kill Shot, Serpent Sting, and Explosive Shot. So you should stop using this as an argument, no?

What’s the least played spec in the game right now? Hint: it’s a ranged DoT spec

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No, it’s not fine. If you can’t follow the discussion don’t post. As the very next line says:

If I focus on one patch like Doolb, I could declare that this means people don’t like pet specs and will play the Lone Wolf spec given the chance.

It’s not my own argument; it’s your understanding of my own argument, which is always a poor understanding.

The class icon being a ranged weapon means the most iconic part of the Hunter class is ranged combat, just like how for Druids the class icon indicates the most iconic part of the class is shapeshifting.

I’ve never met anyone else who argues the class icons are arbitrary. According to you the Hunter class icon could be:

While the Druid class icon could be:

It’s one part of the argument of why SV should be a ranged spec.

The icon isn’t a concrete guideline, but it indicates what best conceptually represents each class.

For a concrete guideline we can look to how each class is (and was) implemented in WoW.

And I use a gun instead of a bow. Crazy.

If Resto stayed in tree form 100% of the time, what difference would that make for the spec?

If SV used a ranged weapon 100% of hte time, what difference would that make for the spec?

Yes because it’s really, really bad. SV is not really, really bad.

308

I’m pointing out the fact that mm also needs to be tuned significantly better than bm and sv to be the most played spec yet we don’t see you complaining about this the same way you complain about sv and talk about 30% more

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309

You’re presenting your non-argument in a nonsense, hyper-specific way that only applies to what you want it to apply. You should probably explain yourself better. You always say someone is “deflecting” when they highlight how silly your thought process is.

I’ve never met anyone else who argues that class icons are concrete rails that a class has to follow.

The DPS icon is a sword, so melee DPS is what DPS is supposed to be. Isn’t that what you think?

And I use a spear. Crazy.

You can’t use any healing spells as a Bear. So it would make a difference.

You can’t use Mongoose Bite, Butchery, FotE, Flanking Strike, or Kill Shot with a ranged weapon.

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Funnily enough, as someone who loved Ranged Survival, I actually liked the Legion incarnation of the Melee version of Survival the most. So I’ve personally lost both Ranged and the Melee version of Survival I liked. I’d rather have Ranged survival back, whether that’s through giving the playstyle option to MM, making a 4th spec, or changing melee survival back to ranged. However, if it’s going to stay melee I want the legion style back /shrug

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311

“Ranged weapons give you ranged capability” is not a hyper-specifc argument. Ranged weapons being the most central and exclusive part of the class is not either. You can keep coping this away but it doesn’t change the fact that Survival remains a deeply unpopular spec, and the reason why that’s the case is obvious to everyone except for Survival fanatics in denial.

Deflecting to Druids and shapeshifting is just that: deflction. It doesn’t work, either, because resto druids did not lose any capability by tree form becoming a temporary cooldown while Survival did lose the capability to be a ranged DPS with a ranged weapon. IF they were comparable, you would have seen just as much controversy, bitterness, and unpopularity with Resto as you do with Survival. But you don’t.

You deflect and generalise because you’re not very good at confronting arguments. It’s a harsh fact, but it is a fact.

Yeah and you still haven’t because I don’t say that.

The icon is just one piece of evidence that ranged weapons are the most recognisable and iconic part of the Hunter class. If it were pets, the icon would be something related to beasts (and, of course, Lone Wolf wouldn’t exist). When people think of Hunters, they think of ranged weapons. That’s why when people play Hunters they overwhelmingly pick one of the two specs that uses a ranged weapons.

Even this many years later, new players come to the game with no memory of ranged SV and pick one of the ranged specs anyway. Can you guess why that is?

I think you knew how weak and juvenile this was before you typed it.

How ever do you think this is relevant?

Interesting, so it would be a different spec entirely.

Almost like the melee v.s. ranged weapon represents a critical difference in capability and it isn’t just a minor cosmetic choice.

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312

Deflection is your favorite buzzword lol. You have to understand when someone uses your own logic for a consistent application, and it falls apart, your argument is just not good.

What about the 2 specs less popular than it? Or MM, which is just as unpopular?

Because BM is one of the easiest to learn and most safe spec in the game? “They pick one of the ranged specs” lil bro they only pick BM.

me when I ignore SV has the strongest kill shot on the class
me when I ignore SV uses aracane shot regularly
me when I ignore SV uses serpent sting regularly

The icon for DPS in the game is a sword. Therefore, all DPS are melee DPS at heart. :slight_smile:

Are icons important or are they not?

Druid icon is a bear paw. Not a tree.

Me when melee specs require melee weapons to function :exploding_head:

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313

Bepples really needs mental help. Thats coming from someone who needed snd sought mental help.

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Maybe you just deflect a lot?

You’ve already shown yourself to be an extremely bad judge of what my arguments actually are. Remember when you said I just unconditionally advocate for the return of everything that used to be in Classic, even though that has obviously never been true?

All those specs have ups and downs.

The only time melee SV ever saw high representation was late Shadowlands… for obvious reasons.

SV is the most consistently unpopular spec.

No, they even pick MM more than they pick SV.

New players don’t know which spec is easiest/hardest. It’s not like SV is hard while levelling up.

When people are given a choice between melee and ranged Hunter, they pick ranged Hunter almost every time.

Can SV fight with full effectiveness with a ranged weapon at >5 yards?

I think you knew how weak and juvenile this was before you typed it.

If you copy-paste your arguments, I’ll copy-paste mine.

They’re important because they represent general concepts in as brief a manner possible.

You’re the one acting like icons are arbitrary, which is a bonkers position.

And the Hunter one is a bow, not a gun. Yet Hunters can also use guns.

Because they represent a concept important to the class, not a specific ability.

Probably something iconic abbout the class.

Yes, SV should use a ranged weapon instead instead of being handicapped to melee weapons at level 10.

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No? Your logic is just fragile and falls apart when applied to literally anything else.

No, pretty sure you’ve just proven yourself to be a logically inconsistent broken record that freaks out when people disagree with him.

Remember when you said “you can’t listen to doolb he HATES all ranged specs in the game and actively despises them, and also hates MM!”

Affli is the most consistently unpopular warlock spec. That’s never been reworked, so your argument doesn’t really work.

You still never answer my question about what should the metric be of “consistently unpopular” and how to solve it. If a spec is the least played for a tier, should it be reworked? Should it be buffed? Should each classes specs have 33% representation on the class consistently? Should all specs be made to be like BM/Ret the most consistently popular specs?

Feel free to show me your numbers cause the only logged numbers are people picking MM and SV at more or less equal levels currently. It sounds like this is just your feelings.

“Hunters core identity is ranged weapons. SV is a deviant. No, I will not acknowledge how SV fights with ranged weapons. Specializations are not a thing.”

So the general concept of DPS is melee? :thinking:

and spears. :slight_smile:

I wonder when Arms will start to use guns. I’m tired of warriosr being handicapped to melee weapons.

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I liked its theme, if not its gameplay. That said, “Survival” just felt such a misnomer for it. (Now, too, of course, but not quite so badly.) “Pursuit” I could see, but “Survival”?

And that would have been a damn good excuse to make it a 4th spec, anyways, while we were at it: Beastmastery, Marksmanship, Survival, Pursuit.

Alas…

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317

hasn’t it always been since day 1?

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318

Since Day 1? No.

It was ill-tuned (and not well thought out) for that desired impact, sure, but it started off with most talents being about delaying enemies reaching you, reducing their damage done to you, additional CC, creating gaps again, increasing self-sustain, etc., with damage sprinkled in by means of traps, venoms, and tracking — all fairly Survivalist in the spaces not contributing more directly to one’s survival.

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I mean with that logic the “survivalist” theme applies to current SV, no? Best usage out of predator’s thirst, spirit bond passive healing, (I believe) lowest cdr on exhil

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Didn’t say otherwise. Just that there’s far less about trapping, tracking, and surviving than there is about reaching/chasing one’s prey, which seems more in keeping with Pursuit than simply Survival.

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There are far better names for the spec currently. Guerilla, Ranger, who knows. I don’t think they’ll ever change a spec name again, though

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322

i agree buff survival

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323

No, you really do deflect all the time.

Instead of confronting why you think people don’t like SV you constantly try to shift scrutiny to other specs.

You’re “pretty sure” of a lot of incorrect things.

It’s probably the impression you give when you complain about ranged players literally all the time.

My apparently unreasonable view is that they should not have gone to the ranged weapon class and remade one of the specs specifically to cater to people who hate ranged weapon classes.

Maybe they should fix it, then?

It’s still more consistently popular than SV is, so SV must be really, really disliked.

I say if a spec is consistently deeply unpopular every tier since it was made and the only time anyone ever plays it is when they make it stupid overpowered, then they probably got it wrong.

It’s not “more or less”, it’s “less”. The amount of people playing SV is less than that of MM and that gap grows every day. You’re the one who think MM is so inherently flawed that it needs a floor-to-ceiling rework. What does it say about SV when more people choose to play MM?

Can SV fight with full effectiveness with a ranged weapon at >5 yards?

Why do you think it’s a sword?

Spears are a melee weapon, like the melee weapon in the icon of the Warrior class.

Warrior has a consistent and beloved melee SV from the very start of the game, unlike SV which has an inconsistent and disliked melee identity that only got shoehorned in to a ranged class after most of the show was already over.

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